-
Website
http://www.bedeviant.com/ -
Original page
http://www.bedeviant.com/2009/04/03/bedeviantcom-responds-to-iowa-gay-marriage-ruling/ -
Subscribe
All Comments -
Community
-
-
Top Commenters
-
Popular Threads
All Comments
I am also a little alarmed when I hear talk of pastors "fighting back," as if mobilizing against gay people being treated equally under the law is more important than --- oh, say --- caring for the sick or feeding the poor.
Sorry, but I think that talk of homosexuals suing churches for recognition just feeds into the wild hyperbole that's present in some places of discussion. Such lawsuits wouldn't go anywhere, and there's no evidence that anyone would have any interest in launching them.
And they Civil Rights, Anti-bullying, and other legislation with almost the exact same wording as the ones we have passed in Iowa and elsewhere over the last few years.
I have no doubt that most homosexuals (including some in my family) just want to be treated fairly. I may disagree but I respect that. But there is a movement driving this agenda that wants much more. Societies never become more tolerant. They simply shift the demographic they are intolerant of. This is what we need to be wary of.
My own church could have found reason to reject my own heterosexual marriage. They didn't but they have that option. They denied my cousin's since her previous marriage had not been annulled. My cousin didn't sue, she just had a civil service with her new husband and she's in the pew every Sunday because as she says, the Church may have turned it's back on me, but I'm not giving up on them. (who is showing the greater charity there, hmmm?)
Because if you are not CERTAIN then you are passing judgement on others without knowing the whole situation.
Is it a Pastors duty to dictate how christians react "If you’re a Christian and you are responding in this way you need to stop it. Now" or to be the light in the situation and guide them there.
I'd also encourage you to show the same respect to your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ with whom you disagree. I would suggest that telling them to "shut up" isn't the best way to start this discussion.
Also, I think we do have to be concerned about the spiritual state of our nation on this and a whole host of issues. I mean to say "God have mercy on our nation" is a bad thing? I hope He does. Saying I'm going to "pray extra hard" is being intolerant? Now I would say they should be diligent in prayer all of the time, but I wouldn't say that is a horrible comment. "Churches are going to get sued" is actually a real concern if you were familiar with current Iowa civil rights statutes.
Anyway, my two cents.
Pray extra hard, please. The Bible say that we should be in prayer for the leaders appointed over us. But why say "I'm gonna pray extra hard tonight"? Does anyone but God need to know that you're gonna be more prayerful? Jesus said go behind a closed door to pray. Why did he say this? So we don't look like fools faking our own righteousness, but so that we can petition God with pure motives. I feel like when we say those things in these contexts it can be heard by some listeners as "These damned heathens are getting their way! This sucks and I don't like there way and i don't like THEM!" (by "damn" I mean in the sense of condemnation, not foul language)
Shane, I know you acknowledged that there probably were inappropriate reactions, I think Justin was just saying these people should petition God in a way that advances the Gospel, instead of making it look intolerant, only for the "religious" and utterly unloving.
If someone didn't say shut up, I'm sure everyone else would be thinking it.
I think the question we all have to ask ourselves is when I use language like that in those contexts do I sound more like Jesus or the Pharisees?
Are we praying GOD...make THEM more like ME!
Or are we praying GOD...make ME more like YOU!
Shane, that's where you and I fundamentally disagree with each other. My question to you would be, "what does that have to do with you?" What does the reaction of another person have to do with the way you treat people as a Christian? It should have no determination on the direction of your behavior. You have a higher standard; a heavenly one. The "love one another..." commandment is not conditional; there is no addendum that reads, "...but only if they're being nice!"
Someone who does not follow Christ is under no obligation to follow his commands and the leadings of his Spirit, so why expect them to? In the words of Jesus to Peter, "what does that have to do with you?"
Our response as believers does not change course one inch, regardless of whether we're mocked, spit on, beat up, or even killed. We do this because this is what Christ modeled to us. Was he 100% in the right? Yes. Was he willing to go through the fire anyway? Yes. So should it be with us, regardless of the names we are called or signs that we see.
"THIS IS THE END! WE HAVE TAKEN THIS TOO FAR AND GOD IS GOING TO RELEASE HIS BLESSING ON OUR NATION. THIS IS THE END!"
Counterpoint: It's not the end of the world.
"THIS COURT DECISION IS GOING TO END CHRISTIAN MORALITY IN OUR STATE."
Counterpoint: No one is forcing YOU to be gay. People aren't going to become gay just because marriage is legalized. The morality will be the same - there will just me more married people
"GAYS HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE MARRIED!"
Counterpoint: While I believe marriage should be between one man and one woman, I also believe gays should have the same civic rights as everyone else. I can't say I am thrilled about those rights being obtained through the institution of marriage, but they are still people.
peace, tina
There's a popular phrase 'you can't legislate morality' (although we clearly do in terms of certain restrictions i.e. murder, etc). In a government such as ours that is committed to the freedom of the collective and the individual these restrictions must be held in tension with the amount of liberty they restrict (coercion). The more restrictions placed on liberty in the name of preserving morality, the less the United States of America holds true to its commitment to preserve freedom for all (likewise with the state of Iowa). One of the judges who decided this case said it well:
“We are firmly convinced the exclusion of gay and lesbian people from the institution of civil marriage does not substantially further any important governmental objective,” Justice Mark S. Cady wrote for the seven-member court, adding later, “We have a constitutional duty to ensure equal protection of the law.” (from today's NY Times read entire article here http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/us/04iowa.html?... )
We do not live in a theocracy. It is not the business of our government to legislate against any and every vice or even things that some of us might consider contrary to our beliefs. It is the business of our government to protect its citizens and preserve order - for all people. In fact it is this exact system that has given people of many faiths or lack thereof the freedom to believe and act as they wish. I am a Christian and some things I would encourage on top of Justin's call for greater love and care with our words/actions (AMEN and AMEN) are this:
- Remember that we do not live in a Theocracy (like Sharia Law in many Muslim countries) - this affords us GREAT freedom to worship and exist as we do.
- Churches should see this as a victory for church/state separation. As the state acted independent of the Church in this instance, it further solidifies a very important distinction required for both entities to remain pure and function properly.
- Freedom and free will are central themes to the Christian story. Coercion does not seem to be the heart of God.
I hope that we could all try to act on behalf of wholeness in these situations instead of furthering the fracture between the Church and the gay community - no amount of legislation or legal action can address these situations like the love of God's people could.
Dan Bryan, you're my hero.
You need to come to the chi so we can hang out.
I want to thank you for this post. While I, myself, am not Christian, I do defend those I know when people act them for the bigotous comments of others (those that Justin was addressing!) I know many compassionate, caring Christian who do live in the stead of their Savoir; they are my friends and I respect their views.
Your comments, and Justin's, remind of the movie "Godspell". It did such a great job of showing Jesus' own gospel of love and tolerance for fellow man.
I hope that your mindframe is contagious and that more people under the umbrella of Christianity echo your sentiments.
Thank you!
How do we respond to them?
Are they also subject to the "wrath of hell?"
I apologize for pushing you over the edge, but truly it's the media that has been wrong in how they are wording it. I've read a lot of comments and posts all over the Internet though saying that the judges have made this legal or made it a law. But that's not the case. Judges don't make laws. It makes me sad that people have completely forgotten Jr. High social studies and it also makes me sad that people spend so much time complaining about our government, but clearly fail to understand how it works.
The point I was trying to make is that no matter how you feel about the ruling, it's not the judges who deserve to be vilified for it. They did their job - to interpret the constitution and that's it.
And I'm not saying the end result is not legal gay marriage...clearly it is. But the Iowa Constitution's been around for a long time. The judges haven't changed anything, they just clarified it.
The judges were specific though in saying that this ruling in no way changes marriages performed in churches, as they recognize the right of the churches to perform marriages as they have always done. Thus, my sacrament remains unchanged.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0411bt.asp
I hesitate to interact with your comment, but I don't want others to be confused on where I stand. I believe in the biblical perspective of marriage and have stated that numerous times not only here, but in other blogs I write as well. "Male and female he created them." I believe sexual intimacy is to be enjoyed only inside the freedom of a marriage between a man and a woman. I hope I wasn't unclear.
In your opinion, what have I said that is unbiblical in any way ("humanist", as you claim)?
Furthermore, what do you consider to be a "real Christian perspective"?
I find it telling that the article you cited ends with the heading, "Winning the Debate". In my experience, people who have as strong a reaction as you usually aren't interested in doing much listening; they simply want to "win" the argument. I hope you prove me wrong.
(ps my two brothers are gay as well so i know how you feel, i hear form them all the time, i know what they are feeling, bc they tell me, so we are kind of in the same boat)
Romans 3:10-18
"as it is written: "there is no one righteous, not even one;there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Please anyone who is going to quote the bible get out your bible out first. No one is without sin.
I didn't see people getting concerned about the world going up in flames when divorce became legal. Open your bible to the new testament and look at how many times it talks about divorce in the first five chapters. Not homosexuality, divorce.
Here is another quote for you,"there is only one true judge and that's God, so chill and let my father do his job." TLC
Peace.
It is no wonder that we see the world going to hell in a handbasket. We must stand up for righteous and pray against unrighteous.
1 Corinthians 6: 9 says- "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God......"within this passage, homosexuals are listed as the unrighteous. It is not for us to judge, God will be the judge and if it is the desire of the homosexual to be excluded from the kingdom of God, that is their choice. 1 Cor 5:5 speaks about the destruction of the flesh. That the sexual offender will be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh (physical affliction or even physical death). we have seen evidence of this. I bear witness to the fact that this is unrighteous, but there is hope in the Lord, as written in the spoken Word. We do not hate the sinner, we hate the sin. "Judge not, least you be judged. But if you judge, judge righteously." I pray for this land and the healing of it. We as a nation have taken God out of the picture. We took Him out of the schools, we took Him out of our laws. He has gone from many churches. We are becoming a lost nation and the land is being destroyed. We need to pray for the land and the people who have control over it. Satan has put blinders on us. The choice is yours. Heaven or Hell. My choice is clear, what about you?