I appreciate your candor here. Good job approaching the tough issues. Here are some of my thoughts:
- perhaps the ELCA is not sidelining Scripture, but many have honestly looked at the homosexuality passages again, and in light of all of Scripture, and realized that we had a misinterpretation for many years, as we have done before. This might even be a MORE uncomfortable view in some ways. To admit we had it wrong, to change a fundamental belief, to go back on millenia of Church practice - that is uncomfortable for many. But, I know there are some who are genuinely looking at Scripture as an authority and realizing that homosexuality is not a sin like we previously understood.
- You state, "It is clear from Scripture that God’s intent for human sexuality is between a man and a woman in the freedom of a covenant relationship" - This might be an "ideal" situation, but there are so many across the spectrum who don't fit this description. Divorce, singleness (which Paul holds up as even better than marriage?), loss b/c of death, re-marriage, transexuals, sexual infidelity, etc. etc. - Here is my honest question: How do we affirm what is "ideal" or "God's plan" while also recognizing people who don't fit that description, for whatever reason, are not "sinners" or "less than" others and still have ministry potential? This question applies to mental and physical disabilities as well.....
These are just a couple of my honest thoughts/questions. Again - thanks for your post.
Peace
Justin Wise
· 4 months ago
It's guys like you that I need to challenge me. You seem level-headed enough to propose a different way of looking at things. I appreciate that.
My biggest question back to you is this: Even if you take out all of the specific verses that people (read: conservatives) LOVE to quote, you still have a metanarrative in Scripture that upholds the bride/groom, man/woman union as the ideal for sexuality. What would you do with that?
yooper1714
· 4 months ago
Justin- I was wondering where you stood on this issue and appreciate that you have clearly defined where you stand now.
The one reason I love reading your blogs is because you can read your heart in them. We don't get someone who is attempting to be politically correct but instead is truly sharing his heart.
The way you wrote your stance on scripture and homosexuality is something that I wish we could put in a book because the stance has been if you are not for homosexuality, then you hate them. If they read this blog, they could not and should not say that about you.
You are correct that the ELCA has lost their soul in this vote and no matter how much people want to bend scripture to meet their cultural views, it is simply not something that can happen. Unfortunately, fringe theologians seem to have more of a voice because they are on the fringe than those who are well grounded in their studies of these scriptures. I can't imagine what you have gone through and the heaviness you have felt in seeing your denomination go through this but I hope that you can be a voice that allows God's Spirit back into it.
Justin Wise
· 4 months ago
Thank you, sir. And yes, Dan is correct ... Check out Andrew's book. It won't steer you wrong!
yooper1714
· 4 months ago
Haha, I was just trying to get Justin a book deal, way to go dan hahaha.
I'm not a Lutheran, but with all your denomination has dealt with on this issue recently I would encourage anyone forming an opinion - and more importantly deciding how you're going to live and co-exist and love now that the decision has been made - to read his book.
Tyler_Braun
· 4 months ago
Well written Justin. I wonder if this subject is past the point of discussion. At least in the blog world it seems people are set on their opinions and will not move on them. One thing I would say is that people who are for the elca's decision believe their decision is based on Biblical principles.
Justin Wise
· 4 months ago
Tyler, you are right. This is the last thing I will mention of this issue. I had it in queue for some time and finally had the nerve to publish it :)
erikccarlson
· 4 months ago
I don't think this is past the point of discussion. There are plenty of people IN the ELCA church who know little to nothing about the passing of the social statement. Furthermore, my boss, for example, JUST started attending our church. The pastor recently spoke about the social statement being passed and it totally confused her as she knew nothing about the vote. (heck of a first impression by the way)
So while I think there are plenty of people who have a hard-line opinion on this subject, there are still plenty of others who are new to the discussion. I don't think this is a once and done conversation so I think it's healthy to continue to dialogue about it.
Tyler_Braun
· 4 months ago
Fair point. I guess I'm speaking mostly to blogs, certainly the discussion should happen in churches. I do think that this kind of heated discussion is hard to have without some sort of relationship between those who are talking.
erikccarlson
· 4 months ago
Are you saying you want to be friends with me? hehe. ;)
I agree. I would be more open to your opinion if we had some sort of history either in the real life or online.
Peace, ECC
Andrew Abbott
· 4 months ago
I, also, am a Lutheran, however have been raised in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. The doctrine of this synod has largely been unwaivered more many, many years. While I have appreciation for the different views of other denominations, I strongly believe in 99.8% of the doctine this synod upholds. I may not adhere to all of the teachings, and may not conform with some of its principles, I do believe in being firm in your convictions, your faith, and your beliefs in order to best serve yourself, your community, and your God. I have a hard time with the "feel-good" churches that claim that if you come to our service, sing a bit, are entertained, and ask for forgiveness this particular day, you will be saved. Having faith and being a part of a religion is much more than that. Maybe it is time for the ELCA be a bit firmer in their beliefs and their adherence to the teachings and Word? While the LCMS has lost many members to the ELCA and other churches for being "old fashioned," I believe that it has been because of their firm stance on the teachings of the Bible and Martin Luther. The LCMS is ALWAYS willing to allow those that have wandered away back into the flock.
Adrienne
· 4 months ago
Thanks for your posts on this issue, Justin.
The ELCA vote came just as I was reading Marin's "Love is an Orientation." And then reading the responses to the vote. And then the responses to the responses...
And what I think I have learned the past few weeks is: 1. The time when American culture matched Biblical moral law is over (if it ever existed) 2. Christians are still called to be witnesses to Christ in our culture 3. A large part of that witness is our ability to show love to the nonbeliever and our ability to be unified with believers.
So while I don't agree with the ELCA on their hermeneutic, I still count them as brothers and sisters in Christ. I honor their deep desire to bring healing and wholeness to their GLBT friends and family. I wish everyone agreed with me on homosexuality (and healthcare, the environment, social justice, evolution, dot dot dot), but we do agree on Christ. And apparently, in this fallen world, this has to be enough.
Justin Wise
· 4 months ago
"So while I don't agree with the ELCA on their hermeneutic, I still count them as brothers and sisters in Christ."
Yes. You said it perfectly. This isn't a matter of apostasy (they haven't left the faith), just hermeneutical application.
Nate Beaird
· 4 months ago
Well said, Justin! Thank you for your transparency.
Jolly Ray
· 4 months ago
Justin, my man,
Great website and great discussion thread! This issue is something in Mass. that is a big deal for many small communities. Two of the scenarios that occur frequently here are 1) whether it [homosexuality] is a sin or not and 2) how to exist in relationship with either decision. I appreciate your statement that basically states that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. Yes, very true indeed. However, your thoughts about this 'ideal' situation breaks down a bit for me.
I know you are a fan of looking at things in relation to an ideal situation (remember the debate for a class we had regarding abortion?) but I think this is different. If you do, in fact, believe that there is a black and white decision regarding the status of homosexuality, then how is it possible to be 'less than ideal', or something other than clearly ok or not? Just wondering what your thoughts are about that.
Anyways, this is way too much like a discussion thread for school.... Im outa heeyah!
Justin Wise
· 4 months ago
It's about time we got some Jolly Ray up in here!
As far as the black and white, I am under the conviction that Scripture speaks to the ideal for human sexual relationships; that being man and woman.
Now, in light of that, the Christian needs to realize that not everyone either A.) Sees the Bible as authoritative, B.) Cares what the Bible says, or C.) Sees homosexuality as a moral issue. We can hold a position on this issue–holding up the ideal put forth by Scripture–while still maintaining civility. While still respecting the fact that not everyone is on the same page with this.
I'm at the point now where it's like, "OK, this decision has been made in the ELCA, so what am I going to do with it?" Essentially, we live in the gray right now, so how am I going to respond?
I would love to hear what Dan Jass thinks about this. But those are my thoughts. What do you think?
And yes, this does feel strangely like Blackboard!
Jolly Ray
· 4 months ago
Well, Jass would definitely have some thoughts that would probably make us all a bit saddened, I'm afraid! (for his sake, at least...)
I am in agreement with you; especially concerning the civility thing. There is no room for people who go around hurting people in many different ways with the 'truth'. I am wondering though how we are to approach those who feel as you mentioned: a,b , and c. The conservative side of this argument chooses to point out that people who say they believe one thing yet do not act upon those specific beliefs are foolishly lying to themselves and others. For instance, if a politician is personally pro-life yet gives credence to those who support abortion, there is a disconnect for many...
I guess what I personally am dealing with these days is what you've called 'gray'. Why is it gray? Are we calling it gray because we realize there are those who don't agree with us; or is it possible that epistemologically there is no gray - there are just different ways we choose to relate to others in an empathetic way?
I want to be bold in witnessing to the truth of things; and I am aware that there are fewer absolute truths than many conservatives are willing to admit. Yet at the same time, what does compassion look like even though relating with those who are in opposition to these truths look like?
As you know, I am pretty jolly all around relationally speaking. Yet recently there have been some people who have challenged this because they are in opposition to pretty much everything you and I would say is true. It has been challenging to remain compassionate yet unwavering...
Ray
jason_adams
· 4 months ago
Hi Justin - thanks for your post - I love hearing your thoughts on all this. Our church is struggling to understand the implications for us now in relation to our synod and the ELCA.
I think what complicates the issue is the extent to which our membership looks at the Bible critically. To assume a majority of our congregation agrees/disagrees with the ELCA social statement is to assume they have an strong understanding of scripture to begin with. There's certainly a portion in our membership that might not have a good understanding of what the Bible says, or what theologians (fringe, or otherwise) have to say about the issue of sexuality in the Bible.
jason_adams
· 4 months ago
I'm having a hard time understanding why what some define as sexual sin has become a barrier to rostered ministry? What about drinking, divorce, gambling, pride, jealousy, or lust? Do we ask ordained ministers to be free from sin? Do we need a social statement that allows for these to prevent someone from serving God as an ordained minister? We have to be careful that we're not placing unreal expectations on God's children who choose to live their lives in service to Christ. We have all sinned. Priests, pastors, and ministers sin. I understand that ministers want to teach repentance, and that some see living in a homosexual relationship as unrepentant sin, but believe it's not for us to judge.
I don’t think the ELCA has decided to be the authority over God’s word. This vote signifies that the ELCA will be accepting of people, no matter their sin, difference of opinions, or relationship choices. Martin Luther would understand that each person has the same access to God as the ELCA, synod, bishop, and pastor, and that we are each in charge of our own salvation.
jason_adams
· 4 months ago
I don't see this as an example of the ELCA trying to interpret scripture to fit American societal values. Homosexual relationships have been around for thousands of years. I do believe that the Bible states the ideal relationship for the bearing of children and glory to God as being a man and woman, but even that has changed. Old Testament marriage was something other than we celebrate as Christians today. The practice of poligamy in ancient times was not seen as contrary to the God of Abraham. We’ve always tried to interpret the Bible in its context with history, and must coninue to do so.
Churches that decide that they would better serve homosexuals in their community with an ordained minister that is of that orientation now have that option. What the Christian must decide is, how will I continue to serve Christ, love my neighbor, and serve God in light of the ELCA's decision. I see this time as a turning point; a paradigm shift, that will lead us into a greater understanding of the word of God, His will for us on earth, and an opportunity to delve deeper into scripture.
God's blessing,
sara vanscoy
· 3 months ago
what i don't fully understand is why we waste so much time debating sexual orientation when there are starving and hurting people in the world...
i can't help but wonder what the world might look like if we devoted as much energy to eradicating poverty and hunger as we do to eradicating homosexuality...
guest
· 1 month ago
As the parent of a lesbian church/choir member in Baltimore, Maryland, I obviously have to take a different slant on your reasoning. My church, who by the way is probably pulling from the ELCA, has made the following statement about gay, lesbian visitors/ members: " we love you but we hate your sin". Does one think that will satisfy a gay visitor to the church? Is that the kind of environment a gay or lesbian young person will be happy in? No wonder my church ( where I am the music director) is dying and I am sure others will follow suit. This decision by the ELCA was bold. I was shocked to see how homophobic my pastor and church really are. Very soon my church will be losing me, (the choir director), my wife and daughter, both choir members. My church and others will be ripped apart. You can shout all you want that you "love gay people" and the ELCA decision really wasn't about sexuality but come on.....when a church makes the decision to pull from the ELCA. it has one thing written all over it... HOMOPHOBIC. PEACE
All Comments
I appreciate your candor here. Good job approaching the tough issues. Here are some of my thoughts:
- perhaps the ELCA is not sidelining Scripture, but many have honestly looked at the homosexuality passages again, and in light of all of Scripture, and realized that we had a misinterpretation for many years, as we have done before. This might even be a MORE uncomfortable view in some ways. To admit we had it wrong, to change a fundamental belief, to go back on millenia of Church practice - that is uncomfortable for many. But, I know there are some who are genuinely looking at Scripture as an authority and realizing that homosexuality is not a sin like we previously understood.
- You state, "It is clear from Scripture that God’s intent for human sexuality is between a man and a woman in the freedom of a covenant relationship" - This might be an "ideal" situation, but there are so many across the spectrum who don't fit this description. Divorce, singleness (which Paul holds up as even better than marriage?), loss b/c of death, re-marriage, transexuals, sexual infidelity, etc. etc. - Here is my honest question: How do we affirm what is "ideal" or "God's plan" while also recognizing people who don't fit that description, for whatever reason, are not "sinners" or "less than" others and still have ministry potential? This question applies to mental and physical disabilities as well.....
These are just a couple of my honest thoughts/questions. Again - thanks for your post.
Peace
My biggest question back to you is this: Even if you take out all of the specific verses that people (read: conservatives) LOVE to quote, you still have a metanarrative in Scripture that upholds the bride/groom, man/woman union as the ideal for sexuality. What would you do with that?
The one reason I love reading your blogs is because you can read your heart in them. We don't get someone who is attempting to be politically correct but instead is truly sharing his heart.
The way you wrote your stance on scripture and homosexuality is something that I wish we could put in a book because the stance has been if you are not for homosexuality, then you hate them. If they read this blog, they could not and should not say that about you.
You are correct that the ELCA has lost their soul in this vote and no matter how much people want to bend scripture to meet their cultural views, it is simply not something that can happen. Unfortunately, fringe theologians seem to have more of a voice because they are on the fringe than those who are well grounded in their studies of these scriptures. I can't imagine what you have gone through and the heaviness you have felt in seeing your denomination go through this but I hope that you can be a voice that allows God's Spirit back into it.
I'm not a Lutheran, but with all your denomination has dealt with on this issue recently I would encourage anyone forming an opinion - and more importantly deciding how you're going to live and co-exist and love now that the decision has been made - to read his book.
So while I think there are plenty of people who have a hard-line opinion on this subject, there are still plenty of others who are new to the discussion. I don't think this is a once and done conversation so I think it's healthy to continue to dialogue about it.
I agree. I would be more open to your opinion if we had some sort of history either in the real life or online.
Peace,
ECC
The ELCA vote came just as I was reading Marin's "Love is an Orientation." And then reading the responses to the vote. And then the responses to the responses...
And what I think I have learned the past few weeks is:
1. The time when American culture matched Biblical moral law is over (if it ever existed)
2. Christians are still called to be witnesses to Christ in our culture
3. A large part of that witness is our ability to show love to the nonbeliever and our ability to be unified with believers.
So while I don't agree with the ELCA on their hermeneutic, I still count them as brothers and sisters in Christ. I honor their deep desire to bring healing and wholeness to their GLBT friends and family. I wish everyone agreed with me on homosexuality (and healthcare, the environment, social justice, evolution, dot dot dot), but we do agree on Christ. And apparently, in this fallen world, this has to be enough.
Yes. You said it perfectly. This isn't a matter of apostasy (they haven't left the faith), just hermeneutical application.
Great website and great discussion thread! This issue is something in Mass. that is a big deal for many small communities. Two of the scenarios that occur frequently here are 1) whether it [homosexuality] is a sin or not and 2) how to exist in relationship with either decision. I appreciate your statement that basically states that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. Yes, very true indeed. However, your thoughts about this 'ideal' situation breaks down a bit for me.
I know you are a fan of looking at things in relation to an ideal situation (remember the debate for a class we had regarding abortion?) but I think this is different. If you do, in fact, believe that there is a black and white decision regarding the status of homosexuality, then how is it possible to be 'less than ideal', or something other than clearly ok or not? Just wondering what your thoughts are about that.
Anyways, this is way too much like a discussion thread for school.... Im outa heeyah!
As far as the black and white, I am under the conviction that Scripture speaks to the ideal for human sexual relationships; that being man and woman.
Now, in light of that, the Christian needs to realize that not everyone either A.) Sees the Bible as authoritative, B.) Cares what the Bible says, or C.) Sees homosexuality as a moral issue. We can hold a position on this issue–holding up the ideal put forth by Scripture–while still maintaining civility. While still respecting the fact that not everyone is on the same page with this.
I'm at the point now where it's like, "OK, this decision has been made in the ELCA, so what am I going to do with it?" Essentially, we live in the gray right now, so how am I going to respond?
I would love to hear what Dan Jass thinks about this. But those are my thoughts. What do you think?
And yes, this does feel strangely like Blackboard!
I am in agreement with you; especially concerning the civility thing. There is no room for people who go around hurting people in many different ways with the 'truth'. I am wondering though how we are to approach those who feel as you mentioned: a,b , and c. The conservative side of this argument chooses to point out that people who say they believe one thing yet do not act upon those specific beliefs are foolishly lying to themselves and others. For instance, if a politician is personally pro-life yet gives credence to those who support abortion, there is a disconnect for many...
I guess what I personally am dealing with these days is what you've called 'gray'. Why is it gray? Are we calling it gray because we realize there are those who don't agree with us; or is it possible that epistemologically there is no gray - there are just different ways we choose to relate to others in an empathetic way?
I want to be bold in witnessing to the truth of things; and I am aware that there are fewer absolute truths than many conservatives are willing to admit. Yet at the same time, what does compassion look like even though relating with those who are in opposition to these truths look like?
As you know, I am pretty jolly all around relationally speaking. Yet recently there have been some people who have challenged this because they are in opposition to pretty much everything you and I would say is true. It has been challenging to remain compassionate yet unwavering...
Ray
Our church is struggling to understand the implications for us now in relation to our synod and the ELCA.
I think what complicates the issue is the extent to which our membership looks at the Bible critically. To assume a majority of our congregation agrees/disagrees with the ELCA social statement is to assume they have an strong understanding of scripture to begin with. There's certainly a portion in our membership that might not have a good understanding of what the Bible says, or what theologians (fringe, or otherwise) have to say about the issue of sexuality in the Bible.
I don’t think the ELCA has decided to be the authority over God’s word. This vote signifies that the ELCA will be accepting of people, no matter their sin, difference of opinions, or relationship choices. Martin Luther would understand that each person has the same access to God as the ELCA, synod, bishop, and pastor, and that we are each in charge of our own salvation.
Churches that decide that they would better serve homosexuals in their community with an ordained minister that is of that orientation now have that option. What the Christian must decide is, how will I continue to serve Christ, love my neighbor, and serve God in light of the ELCA's decision. I see this time as a turning point; a paradigm shift, that will lead us into a greater understanding of the word of God, His will for us on earth, and an opportunity to delve deeper into scripture.
God's blessing,
i can't help but wonder what the world might look like if we devoted as much energy to eradicating poverty and hunger as we do to eradicating homosexuality...