Sydney has a large growing immigrant muslim population. They suffer terrible racism and there is plenty of fear about 'muslims taking over'. I've heard the populate or perish stuff used here too, sadly sometimes from the church. A lot of the immigrants are actually fleeing muslim extremism. Many of them are as secular as nominal Christians and think western=Christian. Their monotheism, love of family, sexual ethics, hospitatity may actually mean Christians have a lot more common ground with them than the secular post christian polytheistic sydneysiders. Some muslims are becoming Christians as Christians go countercultural - love them, spend time with them, open the bible with them, pray for them, and tell them about Jesus. If hokey videos like this were around at Pentecost there'd be no mission to judeans, samaritans, gentiles - just a massive attempt by 3000 to outbreed the world.
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
"If hokey videos like this were around at Pentecost there'd be no mission to judeans, samaritans, gentiles..."
Breathe, Spirit, Breathe. That is some sick conviction Michael. Well said.
dewde
· 6 months ago
I agree with Michael.
peace|dewde
Jon
· 6 months ago
And if we're going to start quoting statistics, I think that Southern Baptists have saved the world 3 times over already.... so maybe we all had better pack up and go to heaven, since our work here is done. LOL
Marc
· 6 months ago
Funny how this video speaks of a declining birthrate in the US. I've seen a lot more expecting parents over the last year or two than I have ever seen. Some of my friends and associates have also noticed this as well. Anyone else notice this too?
I agree with what Michael mentioned earlier, many of the Muslim immigrants and refugees who are coming to Western nations aren't the fanatics we see and read about in the news, most of them came to the West to escape extremism and are nominally Muslim at best. While the video itself may have the best of intentions in mind (lovingly spreading the Gospel to those who don't know Christ), it comes off in the worst possible manner and serves only to demonize those who we should be loving just as much as we love our Christian brothers and sisters.
I hope the day comes when some in the church abandon the borderline conversion by the sword mentality they have toward evangelism and opt for a John 13:34-35 model instead. What a world this would be if Christians were known more for their love and respect for people than their politics or the things they're against.
Nathan
· 6 months ago
I posted this video on my facebook page. Although the ensuing comments weren't like the ones you've shared. (Maybe I have more intellectual friends.) I, too, didn't like how the video ended, but I found the rest fascinating. I really didn't know how to direct the comments on this video so I withheld my own. What interested me was how culture changes and how much reproduction is, most often, the cause. If you leave out the last 1:15 minutes, the video is something you might find in a sociology, anthropology, or even statistics class. I do think the propaganda aspect is horrendous (not why I posted it). But the worldwide cultural change do to reproduction rates is intriguing. As Christians we should understand the shifts in culture. In this case, we should stop being so ignorant and hateful of Muslims and learn how to minister to their spiritual need lovingly and respectfully.
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
Being aware of cultural shifts is always a good thing. I'm wondering if these statistics will be proven right, however.
My thought in all of this is, "Even if the entire world is made of Muslims, what does this have to do with the Christian?" In other words, is our faith dependent upon how many of "us" there are or does it depend on Someone else?
My hope is the latter, not the former.
Ryan C.
· 6 months ago
Exactly. What does this have to do with us?
Daniel_Berman
· 6 months ago
Do not fear the people, God loves them and so should we. On the other hand, we should not underestimate Islamic ideology, especially that which is taken to its extreme form. On the other hand, I can also say beware of Christianity taken out of context as well. The biggest mistake we can make is to assume that we completely understand the world we live in or the people we are interacting with. Keep learning, Keep loving, and keep looking out (being watchful) for deception.
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
If I'm not mistaken, that's three hands.
@billy_johnson
· 6 months ago
i am feeling the pain on this one. I have made the point before, and here it is again: If we are living true, authentic lives of faith in Jesus, the other stuff doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how many Muslims live in the US or if gay marriage is legal or anything else. But I have a feeling that if we were living true, authentic lives, instead of performing a political, militant religion, our numbers would be swelling like they did at first.
{There's my two cents}
Nate Beaird
· 6 months ago
So what's the purpose of posting this? To rip into the person who commented? Obviously he feels strongly about this issue, so what. There's nothing untrue about what he commented, so why the stones? I'm the one who posted this video. I didn't tell you how to think or feel about it, I just put it out there.
Also, there's nothing in this video that is racist. Aside from the Cheesy Movie guy voice and dumb music, there was no racist language. The last 1:15 mins of the movie are the whole point of the rest of the video- "A call to Action" to EVANGELISM, to BE BETTER AT TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT JESUS. Not a call to action to hate Muslims.
How about everyone grow a freakin spine and stand up for Christianity instead of blogging about what's wrong with it all the time. Get a clue, you're not helping the cause by sharing your thoughts about what's wrong with everything Christians do.
Unbelievable...
Dean
· 6 months ago
A devout, peaceful Muslim.
First question: Devout to what?
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
Dedicated to living out the Muslim faith.
Dean
· 6 months ago
Dedicated
1. Wholly committed to something, as to an ideal, political cause, or personal goal. 2. Set apart or reserved for a specific use or purpose.
10. The true Muslim believes that every person is born free from sin and all claims to inherited virtue. He is like a blank book. When the person reaches the age of maturity he becomes accountable for his deeds and intentions, if his development is normal and if he is sane. Man is not only free from sin until he commits sin, but he is also free to do things according to his plans on his own responsibility. This dual freedom: freedom from sin and freedom to do effective things, clears the Muslim's conscience from the heavy pressure of Inherited Sin. It relieves his soul and mind from the unnecessary strains of the Doctrine of Original Sin.
Dean
· 6 months ago
On this rational basis as well as on the authority of the Qur’an, the Muslim believes that Adam realized what he had committed and prayed to God for pardon, as any other sensible sinner would. It is also on the same basis, the Muslim believes, that God, the Forgiving and Merciful, granted Adam pardon (2:35-37; 20:117-122). Hence, the Muslim cannot possibly accept the doctrine that Adam with the whole human race had been condemned and unforgiven until Jesus came to expiate for their sins. Consequently, the Muslim cannot entertain the dramatic story of Jesus' death on the cross just to do away with all human sins once and for all.
Dean
· 6 months ago
"So what, what does this have to do with Christianity?"
Christianity and Islam are the two major religions which each hold that their truths are not only universal but also exclusive and final. It also is the sacred call of the Christian and the Muslim to spread their beliefs to a world that needs to hear their message. This leads to an inherent friction born of a “we’re right, you’re wrong” competition that is not only preached but practiced.
“For both Christians and Muslims ... it is their sacred duty not to keep [their faith] selfishly for themselves, like the Jews or the Hindus, but to bring them to all mankind, overcoming and removing or destroying whatever obstacles may be in the way.”
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
Dean... These are great statistics and quotes. They really are. I'm wondering if you might be missing the point of my post...
My position in all of this is that the people in this video and the people who responded to what I wrote on Facebook are making Muslims out to be the enemy. This is unbiblical. It is wrong. Muslims are not the enemy to Christianity, nor to Christians.
"We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers and the powers of the air..."
I'm wondering how many people who quote Bible verses at length and call Islam a false religion actually know a Muslim personally. My guess is not many, unfortunately. When there is a face to the "them," in my experience things aren't as black and white as we want them to be.
Point being, it shouldn't matter to a Christian if Muslims believe in Allah, Buddha, Shiva, the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... whatever. It ultimately should not matter if all Muslims everywhere are extremists (they aren't) who want to chop everyone's head off (they don't).
Our faith in Christ–the power of our faith–does not rely on how many children we can produce, but the life-changing power of the Spirit. I seem to remember a rag-tag little band of 12 men, surrounded by the most powerful and dominant regimes the world has ever known, yet somehow they managed to let God change the course of human history through them.
How?
For starters, it certainly wasn't by having more children.
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
Dean... These are great statistics and quotes. They really are. I'm wondering if you might be missing the point of my post...
My position in all of this is that the people in this video and the people who responded to what I wrote on Facebook are making Muslims out to be the enemy. This is unbiblical. It is wrong. Muslims are not the enemy to Christianity, nor to Christians.
"We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers and the powers of the air..."
I'm wondering how many people who quote Bible verses at length and call Islam a false religion actually know a Muslim personally. My guess is not many, unfortunately. When there is a face to the "them," in my experience things aren't as black and white as we want them to be.
Point being, it shouldn't matter to a Christian if Muslims believe in Allah, Buddha, Shiva, the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... whatever. It ultimately should not matter if all Muslims everywhere are extremists (they aren't) who want to chop everyone's head off (they don't).
Our faith in Christ–the power of our faith–does not rely on how many children we can produce, but the life-changing power of the Spirit. I seem to remember a rag-tag little band of 12 men, surrounded by one of the most powerful and dominant regimes the world has ever known, yet somehow they managed to let God change the course of human history through them.
How?
For starters, it certainly wasn't by having more children.
Dean
· 6 months ago
For the record, I'm the guy that responded to you on Facebook.
1. I never once said that Muslims were the enemy, and that's not what I'm getting at either. 2. My personal concern, when watching this video, isn't that Muslims as a "people" are having more children. The concern lies in here: Islam and Muslims almost go hand in hand. I'm not 100% educated in this subject, but I'd have to say that most of the time, when someone talks about a Muslim, they are talking about someone who is Islamic, who worships Allah. This is a religious issue, not a race issue. I'm not concerned that a certain people group is rising in numbers, it's that in combination with the fact that with the growth in the Muslim population, comes a growth in Islam. As Christians, we are trying to go into all the world and preach the gospels. With the world becoming dominantly Muslim (according to the video), this presents a HUGE obstacle, as the conflict between Christianity and Islam dates clear back to the time of Abraham, with Issac and Ishmael.
Dean
· 6 months ago
The fact is, the solution to telling Muslims about Jesus isn't as simple as that (Just telling them about Jesus.) If and when we do reach out to Muslims, the issue of Islam WILL come up. You can't ignore the facts. Islam denies original sin, Islam denies that Jesus is the Son of God, and Islam denies that Christ was even crucified. This is a very big obstacle, because they don't completely deny these things. They do accept that there is "sin" they do accept that Jesus was a real person, but confine Him to being a prophet, but nothing more (which is strange that they treat all prophets equally because Jesus did claim to be the Son of God and with everything Jesus said, you'd think they would completely reject Him.)
I could go on and on, but the whole point is - Islam is a problem. All false religions are a problem. They all get in the way of truth. There was nothing wrong with that video in my opinion. It wasn't hate speech. It was showing that, with an overwhelming rise in the Muslim population, Christianity has some VERY difficult days ahead.
Dean
· 6 months ago
Oh, and one more thing: Satan is the father of lies and Islam is a lie. Jesus warned us about false teachers and false teachings, and I believe with all my heart that it's love, not hate, to tell the truth. Jesus said it over and over and over, "I tell you the truth..."
I am going to proclaim the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, whether it's viewed as hate speech or not.
Something to think about: If you tell someone the truth, you will more than likely have to deal with the lies they already believe.
Side note: I believe that as Christians, we are the light of the world, and how we live is a reflection of the one who indwells us. But I will tell you another thing, I believe very firmly that we MUST tell the truth. If "love is all we need" then Jesus should have just told us to obey the first 2 commandments, and left that great commision stuff alone. But he didn't, did he?
Dean
· 6 months ago
Proclaiming truth is so often seen as arrogant and hateful and pompus, even to Christians. These days, nobody wants to tell the truth. Go into a lot of churches today, and they spend so much time telling you how much God loves you that they forget to tell you what God wants us to do, and that is to call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and accept Him as our Lord and Savior. I don't think we need to yell at people and tell them they are sinners and going to hell, but we SHOULD warn them that there is a hell and let them know that they really are a sinner in need of a Savior. We need to speak the truth in love.
Nate Beaird
· 6 months ago
I think we can all agree that not all Muslims are extremists. Even if only "X" amount of the whole percentage of the whole population of Muslims were extremists, it would only be logical to assume that as one grows, so will the other.
Also, I'm not the one (as a Christian) killing people who don't believe in my God as the true god. I don't know any, or have heard of any Christians killing people because they didn't believe in God. The truth is, with said growing numbers, the chance that I'm in a position to be killed for not believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster increases. Not that I wouldn't die for my faith, I would, but that doesn't mean I WANT to die.
It became our problem when uneducated, crazy people started strapping bombs to themselves to kill people who didn't believe what they believed. Does ANYone remember that? Why would a "peaceful Muslim" want to be apart of such a religion?
I'm called to Love God, and Love People. I'm commissioned to "Tell the world about the Gospel." My goal is to love Muslims while I tell them about the God I love, but I'm not going to apologize for being a Christian.
Susan
· 6 months ago
"It became our problem when uneducated, crazy people started strapping bombs to themselves to kill people who didn't believe what they believed. Does ANYone remember that? Why would a "peaceful Muslim" want to be apart of such a religion?"
People did some might bad stuff in the name of Christianity years ago too. I'm Catholic, but I'm well aware of my church's part in the crusades, in looking the other way during the Holocaust and so much more. But my faith is bigger than the church. Why can't a Muslim's faith be bigger than a few terroristic extremists?
Nate Beaird
· 6 months ago
It can be, that's what I said in the very first sentence. Don't take my response out-of-context. The Crusades, OK, I guess you got me there-however, I wasn't there killing people, and I think we can all agree the Dark Ages were...dark.
Dan Bryan
· 6 months ago
Dean - forgive me for jumping in mid-stream. You've obviously thought a lot about this and I've enjoyed following the dialogue.
I think Justin's post is getting right at the heart of this statement you just made:
"I am going to proclaim the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, whether its viewed as hate speech or not."
This is the problem. It can no longer be "truth in love" as you say later if its "viewed as hate" - can it? Often times I think we've elevated the need for right doctrine or proclaiming truth far beyond the command to love our neighbor. If you're neighbor views what and how you say something as hateful, then it is hate plain and simple.
Love, true honest genuine love - is rarely misinterpreted for something else. I think we've been lying to ourselves that this is the rule, when more often than not it's the exception. There are certainly times when you act in the most loving way possible and someone will not accept it, but I earnestly do not believe that is the norm.
Videos and propaganda like this tend to breed fear. Maybe not for you, you are clearly a student of the issue. But for someone like my dad who may be new to the idea (and forwarded something like this to me the other day) it scares him to death.
The statistics are very compelling. What does it have to do with us? The world is changing, pay attention. What has it meant for me? I decided to make some Muslim friends. "They" were a concept, now they're human beings. I'm not scared of them anymore, and now I can get to work on loving them and all of the other people in my life.
Dean
· 6 months ago
We live in a lost and dying world. You seem to be suggesting that love is determined by the receiver and not the giver. My statement had to do with the fact that there are a lot of bitter people in this world. Watch the Truth Project sometime. One of the people they interview on there is named "Flash". In one of the interview sessions, they asked him what he thought of the church. He literally said "**** the church!" You tell some people about God and they immediately get defensive and say things like, "You think you're better than me?!?" They may translate your "help" as "hate". Are you hating them or loving them?
Dean
· 6 months ago
John 8:41-47 (NIV) 41You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
Pretty harsh words from Jesus there, telling them that they are children of the devil... was He loving them?
Dean
· 6 months ago
God is love and Jesus is the Son of God and things He said were mistook all the time. I'm really not trying to be mean here, but seriously... think about what you are saying.
"Love, true honest genuine love - is rarely misinterpreted for something else."
Then why did the Pharisees want to kill Jesus? Was Jesus NOT a loving person? Jesus was perfect and blameless... without ANY sin and He set the ultimate example for us. Yet, He demonstrated love perfectly to everyone He came in contact with and yet so many wanted Him dead...
Hmmm...
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
Dean, I get where you're coming from. I really do. I understand your desire to preach the Gospel to Muslims and stand up for the truth of Christianity. I get that. I hear you on that. I long for that day when people from all tribes, tongues, and nations will confess that "Jesus is Lord." It will be glorious.
My problem with what you're suggesting is that I believe your approach may actually hinder Muslims from walking with Christ. Your intentions, as good as they are, are actually repelling people from the Gospel you and I love so much. I can't stand by idly and watch that happen.
I'll be honest: I cannot fathom Jesus speaking to Muslims in the way that you're suggesting. I cannot imagine Jesus telling a Muslim his religion is "false" and that it has its origins with the "Father of lies." I don't see that in Scripture and I don't sense that from the Spirit of Christ. Usually Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for the Pharisees, who were Jews just like Jesus.
Dean
· 6 months ago
I strongly disagree. Jesus told us that He is THE way, THE truth and THE life and no man comes unto the Father but by HIM. I don't like to talk about what Jesus would do, but what He did do, and what He did do was tell people that He was the Son of God and that no man can come to the Father but by Him. He did warn of false prophets and false teachings.
By the way... Mohamed was a false prophet by the way, and Islam is a false teaching. I'm not afraid to say it, even if you are.
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
One last question, do you know a Muslim personally?
Dean
· 6 months ago
No, but I don't see your point. I know a lot of people who believe false things, and I don't just run at them from the start and bash them with a Bible, but eventually, I do tell them what the Bible says. I would do the same thing if I knew a Muslim, but I don't know any.
I get it dude, so just stop. People are people. I'm not a racist. I've said it over and over again, this is a RELIGIOUS matter, not one of race. My concern is with Islam. Please, just stop with this nonsense.
2 Peter 3:9 He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The whole point is, with the people who follow Islam, or any other false religion, they THINK they know the truth. So, at some point you have to tell them the truth and it will be said or implied that there truth is, in fact, false. Islam denies the need for a Savior... is that false? Do they need a Savior? If so, you'd better let them know it.
Dean
· 6 months ago
I was going to stop posting on here but I decided I needed to address one thing:
I shouldn't have said, "Please just stop with this nonsense." I should have just said, "Please, just stop." I didn't need to use the word nonsense. I apologize for that. I definitely feel very strongly about this subject, but I will not excuse myself insulting you in any way, shape or form. It's one thing to speak boldly and another to be insulting.
That is all.
Dean
· 6 months ago
For the record, I'm done at this point. I've said what I needed to say.
Dan Bryan
· 6 months ago
I think love is a two way street. I may think I'm loving you, but if you don't feel that way how can I be certain I've loved you well? I'm married, it certainly doesn't work that way with my wife. I can't say "well honey I'm loving you well, don't tell me I'm not, I decide you don't."
There are certainly parts of our world that our lost and dying. There are also some parts that are beautiful, wonderful - and all of it is redeemable.
I labored through the truth project (all 37 episodes), I rather liked Flash - and more than anything my heart went out to him. I don't know his whole story, but I imagine he must've been hurt pretty badly to say "f" the church.
You missed me a bit I think. It's HOW we are telling people. They are not just making that reaction up out of nowhere, whether it is us or the person who tried to "save" them before us there's a reason people react that way. So to your question, "are you helping them or hating them" - you're not helping them if you don't take the time to know them and you only want to drop a salvation bomb on them.
Further, if you want a good example of what I mean by things like this breeding fear just look at the man behind the organization that created the Truth Project. James Dobson, a once credible voice for the church, did nothing but illicit fear, hate, and doomsday worries in this ridiculous letter written only a few months ago: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/files/Focusletter.pd...
We're so focused on getting it right, "truth", that we've forgotten how to treat people as human beings whether we disagree with their ideologies or not.
Nate Beaird
· 6 months ago
My parents loved me, and sometimes I didnt' FEEL loved, but later I realized they did the things they did because they loved me. Loving people is not always appeasing people, in fact, I'd say you love them more when you tell them the truth...in love. Not by saying "frooffy frooffy roses and daisies, what you believe is truth and what I believe is truth so let's be buddies."
Your comparison of loving your wife well and loving people who are believing in a false teaching of our God is a bad one.
Speak the Truth in love! It may not be popluar.
Dean
· 6 months ago
Agreed, it's not the best comparison. Also agreed on speaking the truth in love, though it may not be popular.
Dave Sandell
· 6 months ago
I recently heard someone say that while we aren't called to go out there and make people like us, we're not called to go out there and make people *not* like us, either. My fear with the way many people have gone about "loving" Muslims is that we're nailing the latter category. If our baseline is fear (which this video serves up like a four-course meal), then I don't see how love flows out of that.
Nate Beaird
· 6 months ago
My parents loved me, and sometimes I didnt' FEEL loved, but later I realized they did the things they did because they loved me. Loving people is not always appeasing people, in fact, I'd say you love them more when you tell them the truth...in love. Not by saying "frooffy frooffy roses and daisies, what you believe is truth and what I believe is truth so let's be buddies."
Dave Sandell
· 6 months ago
But "your religion sucks" is not doing anyone any good. I want to meet the muslim who has found the message of Jesus compelling through a "your religion sucks" experience. I think we need to be developing relationships, friendships and trust. Let our lives embody Jesus. And see where that and prayer get us. It's working for guys like Carl Medearis and Rick Love. It's working for New Frontiers as best I understand it. This video doesn't scream relationship to me. It screams "quick, get the muslims out of here". And that's just not winning anyone over.
Nate Beaird
· 6 months ago
I've never said we should take the "your Religion Sucks" approach. In fact, if you've read the rest of my comments, you'll notice that I've said this;
"I'm called to Love God, and Love People. I'm commissioned to "Tell the world about the Gospel." My goal is to love Muslims while I tell them about the God I love, but I'm not going to apologize for being a Christian."
Hey, I didn't make the video, I just thought it was interesting.
Overall, I think Dean and I are being seen as wanting to bash people over the head with the bible and water-board them until they confess Jesus as their savior. I hope you're all smart enough to know better, even though Justin and I may not agree, he can tell you that I'm not even close to that.
As far as what Dean has said: He used scripture to back up all his thoughts and statements. Aren't we taught to back up what we say or feel in scripture? By Saying his comments are stupid is to sy The Bible is stupid, and I know you don't mean that, right?
Love God. Love People. Tell the World.
Nate Beaird
· 6 months ago
As far as your friend on Facebook who said, "the blind hatred and intolerance [of these people who have posted on your blog scares me]. i'm pretty sure jesus was against both."
I feel like I'm taking "Crazy Pills!" Jesus wasn't tolerant of everyone, he hung out with the "sinners" to share the Truth with them, not to be tolerant of their sin and let them think it was OK.
Susan
· 6 months ago
Justin, I think it really boils down to intent. What is the intent of the video? Is it to lift up and inspire or is it to cause fear and division?
When I explain sin to my kids it goes like this: Sometimes we make mistakes and we hurt someone and we didn't mean to do it...like you stepped on my toe, but it was an accident and you can say sorry and that's all we need to do. But sometimes you haul off and slug your sister. That's not an accident and that's a sin, and for that you need to say sorry to your sister AND to God.
It's all in the intent.
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
"It's all in the intent." Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Nate Beaird
· 6 months ago
Overall, I think Dean and I are being seen as wanting to bash people over the head with the bible and water-board them until they confess Jesus as their savior. I hope you're all smart enough to know better, even though Justin and I may not agree, he can tell you that I'm not even close to that.
As far as what Dean has said: He used scripture to back up all his thoughts and statements. Aren't we taught to back up what we say or feel in scripture? By Saying his comments are stupid is to sy The Bible is stupid, and I know you don't mean that, right?
Love God. Love People. Tell the World.
Justin Wise
· 6 months ago
Dean used Scripture, true. Unfortunately, it is painfully out of context. You can quote Scripture to affirm any position one holds, just ask Fred Phelps.
The question isn't, "did you quote Scripture?" The question should be, "did you quote Scripture correctly." I don't believe he has. Context is king, not our own interpretations.
"Enthusiasm without knowledge is no good; haste makes mistakes."
jason kramme
· 6 months ago
some thoughts:
1. All statistical projections are exactly that: projections. 2. Using fear tactics to inspire Christian faith is stupid considering how often God told us not to fear. 3. Europe (and the US) will be agnostic or atheistic before it becomes completley Islamic. 4. The period of time between the reformation and the twentieth century all but ensures that there will never again be a western theocracy. 5. The appeal for western converts to Islam is the life change required and bad associations from history. Our lives need to change and we need to own our history. 6. When it comes to using Scipture, Scripture isn't the problem, Users are.
jason kramme
· 6 months ago
7. It is just as possible to be "culturally Muslim" as it is to be "culturally Christian." The trend towards watered-down faith is happening in Muslim countries too.
D.K. Norrisson
· 6 months ago
Interesting video, and interesting comments. Some thoughts: 1. the video isn't advocating an attack on Islam or Muslims, but evangelism 2. I think that it is meant as a "wake up call," but that videos like this tend to be alarmist and to perhaps scare people rather than wake them up 3. it's unclear to me whether this video is suggesting that Christians need to start having more children? 4. it is clear to me that anyone who is not Muslim needs to come to terms with understanding and learning to relate to Muslims - it is definitely true that they (and others who are different than us, whoever we are) are coming - the world is shrinking, diversity is increasing, and we need to learn to live with others who are different. For me as a Christ-follower, it means that I need to learn to love and share Jesus with others who are different than I am (whether Muslim or other). 5. whether Christian or other, everyone finds it easiest to live in a country where the majority is like them; another challenge that is coming the way of non-Muslims is, can we learn to live in situations where Muslims are either a significant minority, or the majority? 6. as shown in the comments above, one thing that non Muslims tend to be uneasy about is the tendency (or the perceived tendency) for Muslims to impose a Muslim religious framework on society, when they are in control. This is rooted in the Islamic vision not to separate but to join religion and state, and to impose morality (this is also true, to some extent, of "fundamentalist" Christians). A question I have for Muslims in the world today is, can you agree to separate religion and state and to allow freedom of conscience, leaving people free both to practice their faith and to call others to it? I.e., can you embrace the free marketplace of ideas approach to society, and "compete" with others (religious and non) on the basis of appeal rather than forcing people to go along with your Islamic way? In the U.S., all Christian and others (Jewish, etc.) have found that their faith community is healthier with this open "competition" (or standing on their own feet, having to attract people to their faith community). And Muslims need to learn to deal with criticism of their community, even of their religion, through discussion and modeling of the good that you offer, rather than going on a rampage.
Thanks, Justin, for posting this, and generating the discussion.
All Comments
A lot of the immigrants are actually fleeing muslim extremism. Many of them are as secular as nominal Christians and think western=Christian. Their monotheism, love of family, sexual ethics, hospitatity may actually mean Christians have a lot more common ground with them than the secular post christian polytheistic sydneysiders. Some muslims are becoming Christians as Christians go countercultural - love them, spend time with them, open the bible with them, pray for them, and tell them about Jesus.
If hokey videos like this were around at Pentecost there'd be no mission to judeans, samaritans, gentiles - just a massive attempt by 3000 to outbreed the world.
Breathe, Spirit, Breathe. That is some sick conviction Michael. Well said.
peace|dewde
I agree with what Michael mentioned earlier, many of the Muslim immigrants and refugees who are coming to Western nations aren't the fanatics we see and read about in the news, most of them came to the West to escape extremism and are nominally Muslim at best. While the video itself may have the best of intentions in mind (lovingly spreading the Gospel to those who don't know Christ), it comes off in the worst possible manner and serves only to demonize those who we should be loving just as much as we love our Christian brothers and sisters.
I hope the day comes when some in the church abandon the borderline conversion by the sword mentality they have toward evangelism and opt for a John 13:34-35 model instead. What a world this would be if Christians were known more for their love and respect for people than their politics or the things they're against.
My thought in all of this is, "Even if the entire world is made of Muslims, what does this have to do with the Christian?" In other words, is our faith dependent upon how many of "us" there are or does it depend on Someone else?
My hope is the latter, not the former.
{There's my two cents}
Also, there's nothing in this video that is racist. Aside from the Cheesy Movie guy voice and dumb music, there was no racist language. The last 1:15 mins of the movie are the whole point of the rest of the video- "A call to Action" to EVANGELISM, to BE BETTER AT TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT JESUS. Not a call to action to hate Muslims.
How about everyone grow a freakin spine and stand up for Christianity instead of blogging about what's wrong with it all the time. Get a clue, you're not helping the cause by sharing your thoughts about what's wrong with everything Christians do.
Unbelievable...
First question: Devout to what?
1. Wholly committed to something, as to an ideal, political cause, or personal goal.
2. Set apart or reserved for a specific use or purpose.
Muslim faith=Islam, correct?
The following is from http://www.islam101.com/dawah/articlesOfFaith.htm
10. The true Muslim believes that every person is born free from sin and all claims to inherited virtue. He is like a blank book. When the person reaches the age of maturity he becomes accountable for his deeds and intentions, if his development is normal and if he is sane. Man is not only free from sin until he commits sin, but he is also free to do things according to his plans on his own responsibility. This dual freedom: freedom from sin and freedom to do effective things, clears the Muslim's conscience from the heavy pressure of Inherited Sin. It relieves his soul and mind from the unnecessary strains of the Doctrine of Original Sin.
Answer: Everything.
Taken from http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11582620...
Christianity and Islam are the two major religions which each hold that their truths are not only universal but also exclusive and final. It also is the sacred call of the Christian and the Muslim to spread their beliefs to a world that needs to hear their message. This leads to an inherent friction born of a “we’re right, you’re wrong” competition that is not only preached but practiced.
“For both Christians and Muslims ... it is their sacred duty not to keep [their faith] selfishly for themselves, like the Jews or the Hindus, but to bring them to all mankind, overcoming and removing or destroying whatever obstacles may be in the way.”
My position in all of this is that the people in this video and the people who responded to what I wrote on Facebook are making Muslims out to be the enemy. This is unbiblical. It is wrong. Muslims are not the enemy to Christianity, nor to Christians.
"We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers and the powers of the air..."
I'm wondering how many people who quote Bible verses at length and call Islam a false religion actually know a Muslim personally. My guess is not many, unfortunately. When there is a face to the "them," in my experience things aren't as black and white as we want them to be.
Point being, it shouldn't matter to a Christian if Muslims believe in Allah, Buddha, Shiva, the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... whatever. It ultimately should not matter if all Muslims everywhere are extremists (they aren't) who want to chop everyone's head off (they don't).
Our faith in Christ–the power of our faith–does not rely on how many children we can produce, but the life-changing power of the Spirit. I seem to remember a rag-tag little band of 12 men, surrounded by the most powerful and dominant regimes the world has ever known, yet somehow they managed to let God change the course of human history through them.
How?
For starters, it certainly wasn't by having more children.
My position in all of this is that the people in this video and the people who responded to what I wrote on Facebook are making Muslims out to be the enemy. This is unbiblical. It is wrong. Muslims are not the enemy to Christianity, nor to Christians.
"We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers and the powers of the air..."
I'm wondering how many people who quote Bible verses at length and call Islam a false religion actually know a Muslim personally. My guess is not many, unfortunately. When there is a face to the "them," in my experience things aren't as black and white as we want them to be.
Point being, it shouldn't matter to a Christian if Muslims believe in Allah, Buddha, Shiva, the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... whatever. It ultimately should not matter if all Muslims everywhere are extremists (they aren't) who want to chop everyone's head off (they don't).
Our faith in Christ–the power of our faith–does not rely on how many children we can produce, but the life-changing power of the Spirit. I seem to remember a rag-tag little band of 12 men, surrounded by one of the most powerful and dominant regimes the world has ever known, yet somehow they managed to let God change the course of human history through them.
How?
For starters, it certainly wasn't by having more children.
1. I never once said that Muslims were the enemy, and that's not what I'm getting at either.
2. My personal concern, when watching this video, isn't that Muslims as a "people" are having more children. The concern lies in here: Islam and Muslims almost go hand in hand. I'm not 100% educated in this subject, but I'd have to say that most of the time, when someone talks about a Muslim, they are talking about someone who is Islamic, who worships Allah. This is a religious issue, not a race issue. I'm not concerned that a certain people group is rising in numbers, it's that in combination with the fact that with the growth in the Muslim population, comes a growth in Islam. As Christians, we are trying to go into all the world and preach the gospels. With the world becoming dominantly Muslim (according to the video), this presents a HUGE obstacle, as the conflict between Christianity and Islam dates clear back to the time of Abraham, with Issac and Ishmael.
I could go on and on, but the whole point is - Islam is a problem. All false religions are a problem. They all get in the way of truth. There was nothing wrong with that video in my opinion. It wasn't hate speech. It was showing that, with an overwhelming rise in the Muslim population, Christianity has some VERY difficult days ahead.
I am going to proclaim the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, whether it's viewed as hate speech or not.
Something to think about: If you tell someone the truth, you will more than likely have to deal with the lies they already believe.
Side note: I believe that as Christians, we are the light of the world, and how we live is a reflection of the one who indwells us. But I will tell you another thing, I believe very firmly that we MUST tell the truth. If "love is all we need" then Jesus should have just told us to obey the first 2 commandments, and left that great commision stuff alone. But he didn't, did he?
Also, I'm not the one (as a Christian) killing people who don't believe in my God as the true god. I don't know any, or have heard of any Christians killing people because they didn't believe in God. The truth is, with said growing numbers, the chance that I'm in a position to be killed for not believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster increases. Not that I wouldn't die for my faith, I would, but that doesn't mean I WANT to die.
It became our problem when uneducated, crazy people started strapping bombs to themselves to kill people who didn't believe what they believed. Does ANYone remember that? Why would a "peaceful Muslim" want to be apart of such a religion?
I'm called to Love God, and Love People. I'm commissioned to "Tell the world about the Gospel." My goal is to love Muslims while I tell them about the God I love, but I'm not going to apologize for being a Christian.
People did some might bad stuff in the name of Christianity years ago too. I'm Catholic, but I'm well aware of my church's part in the crusades, in looking the other way during the Holocaust and so much more. But my faith is bigger than the church. Why can't a Muslim's faith be bigger than a few terroristic extremists?
I think Justin's post is getting right at the heart of this statement you just made:
"I am going to proclaim the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, whether its viewed as hate speech or not."
This is the problem. It can no longer be "truth in love" as you say later if its "viewed as hate" - can it? Often times I think we've elevated the need for right doctrine or proclaiming truth far beyond the command to love our neighbor. If you're neighbor views what and how you say something as hateful, then it is hate plain and simple.
Love, true honest genuine love - is rarely misinterpreted for something else. I think we've been lying to ourselves that this is the rule, when more often than not it's the exception. There are certainly times when you act in the most loving way possible and someone will not accept it, but I earnestly do not believe that is the norm.
Videos and propaganda like this tend to breed fear. Maybe not for you, you are clearly a student of the issue. But for someone like my dad who may be new to the idea (and forwarded something like this to me the other day) it scares him to death.
The statistics are very compelling. What does it have to do with us? The world is changing, pay attention. What has it meant for me? I decided to make some Muslim friends. "They" were a concept, now they're human beings. I'm not scared of them anymore, and now I can get to work on loving them and all of the other people in my life.
41You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
Pretty harsh words from Jesus there, telling them that they are children of the devil... was He loving them?
"Love, true honest genuine love - is rarely misinterpreted for something else."
Then why did the Pharisees want to kill Jesus? Was Jesus NOT a loving person? Jesus was perfect and blameless... without ANY sin and He set the ultimate example for us. Yet, He demonstrated love perfectly to everyone He came in contact with and yet so many wanted Him dead...
Hmmm...
My problem with what you're suggesting is that I believe your approach may actually hinder Muslims from walking with Christ. Your intentions, as good as they are, are actually repelling people from the Gospel you and I love so much. I can't stand by idly and watch that happen.
I'll be honest: I cannot fathom Jesus speaking to Muslims in the way that you're suggesting. I cannot imagine Jesus telling a Muslim his religion is "false" and that it has its origins with the "Father of lies." I don't see that in Scripture and I don't sense that from the Spirit of Christ. Usually Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for the Pharisees, who were Jews just like Jesus.
By the way... Mohamed was a false prophet by the way, and Islam is a false teaching. I'm not afraid to say it, even if you are.
I get it dude, so just stop. People are people. I'm not a racist. I've said it over and over again, this is a RELIGIOUS matter, not one of race. My concern is with Islam. Please, just stop with this nonsense.
2 Peter 3:9
He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The whole point is, with the people who follow Islam, or any other false religion, they THINK they know the truth. So, at some point you have to tell them the truth and it will be said or implied that there truth is, in fact, false. Islam denies the need for a Savior... is that false? Do they need a Savior? If so, you'd better let them know it.
I shouldn't have said, "Please just stop with this nonsense." I should have just said, "Please, just stop." I didn't need to use the word nonsense. I apologize for that. I definitely feel very strongly about this subject, but I will not excuse myself insulting you in any way, shape or form. It's one thing to speak boldly and another to be insulting.
That is all.
There are certainly parts of our world that our lost and dying. There are also some parts that are beautiful, wonderful - and all of it is redeemable.
I labored through the truth project (all 37 episodes), I rather liked Flash - and more than anything my heart went out to him. I don't know his whole story, but I imagine he must've been hurt pretty badly to say "f" the church.
You missed me a bit I think. It's HOW we are telling people. They are not just making that reaction up out of nowhere, whether it is us or the person who tried to "save" them before us there's a reason people react that way. So to your question, "are you helping them or hating them" - you're not helping them if you don't take the time to know them and you only want to drop a salvation bomb on them.
Further, if you want a good example of what I mean by things like this breeding fear just look at the man behind the organization that created the Truth Project. James Dobson, a once credible voice for the church, did nothing but illicit fear, hate, and doomsday worries in this ridiculous letter written only a few months ago: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/files/Focusletter.pd...
We're so focused on getting it right, "truth", that we've forgotten how to treat people as human beings whether we disagree with their ideologies or not.
Your comparison of loving your wife well and loving people who are believing in a false teaching of our God is a bad one.
Speak the Truth in love! It may not be popluar.
"I'm called to Love God, and Love People. I'm commissioned to "Tell the world about the Gospel." My goal is to love Muslims while I tell them about the God I love, but I'm not going to apologize for being a Christian."
Hey, I didn't make the video, I just thought it was interesting.
Overall, I think Dean and I are being seen as wanting to bash people over the head with the bible and water-board them until they confess Jesus as their savior. I hope you're all smart enough to know better, even though Justin and I may not agree, he can tell you that I'm not even close to that.
As far as what Dean has said: He used scripture to back up all his thoughts and statements. Aren't we taught to back up what we say or feel in scripture? By Saying his comments are stupid is to sy The Bible is stupid, and I know you don't mean that, right?
Love God. Love People. Tell the World.
I feel like I'm taking "Crazy Pills!" Jesus wasn't tolerant of everyone, he hung out with the "sinners" to share the Truth with them, not to be tolerant of their sin and let them think it was OK.
When I explain sin to my kids it goes like this: Sometimes we make mistakes and we hurt someone and we didn't mean to do it...like you stepped on my toe, but it was an accident and you can say sorry and that's all we need to do. But sometimes you haul off and slug your sister. That's not an accident and that's a sin, and for that you need to say sorry to your sister AND to God.
It's all in the intent.
As far as what Dean has said: He used scripture to back up all his thoughts and statements. Aren't we taught to back up what we say or feel in scripture? By Saying his comments are stupid is to sy The Bible is stupid, and I know you don't mean that, right?
Love God. Love People. Tell the World.
The question isn't, "did you quote Scripture?" The question should be, "did you quote Scripture correctly." I don't believe he has. Context is king, not our own interpretations.
"Enthusiasm without knowledge is no good; haste makes mistakes."
1. All statistical projections are exactly that: projections.
2. Using fear tactics to inspire Christian faith is stupid considering how often God told us not to fear.
3. Europe (and the US) will be agnostic or atheistic before it becomes completley Islamic.
4. The period of time between the reformation and the twentieth century all but ensures that there will never again be a western theocracy.
5. The appeal for western converts to Islam is the life change required and bad associations from history. Our lives need to change and we need to own our history.
6. When it comes to using Scipture, Scripture isn't the problem, Users are.
1. the video isn't advocating an attack on Islam or Muslims, but evangelism
2. I think that it is meant as a "wake up call," but that videos like this tend to be alarmist and to perhaps scare people rather than wake them up
3. it's unclear to me whether this video is suggesting that Christians need to start having more children?
4. it is clear to me that anyone who is not Muslim needs to come to terms with understanding and learning to relate to Muslims - it is definitely true that they (and others who are different than us, whoever we are) are coming - the world is shrinking, diversity is increasing, and we need to learn to live with others who are different. For me as a Christ-follower, it means that I need to learn to love and share Jesus with others who are different than I am (whether Muslim or other).
5. whether Christian or other, everyone finds it easiest to live in a country where the majority is like them; another challenge that is coming the way of non-Muslims is, can we learn to live in situations where Muslims are either a significant minority, or the majority?
6. as shown in the comments above, one thing that non Muslims tend to be uneasy about is the tendency (or the perceived tendency) for Muslims to impose a Muslim religious framework on society, when they are in control. This is rooted in the Islamic vision not to separate but to join religion and state, and to impose morality (this is also true, to some extent, of "fundamentalist" Christians). A question I have for Muslims in the world today is, can you agree to separate religion and state and to allow freedom of conscience, leaving people free both to practice their faith and to call others to it? I.e., can you embrace the free marketplace of ideas approach to society, and "compete" with others (religious and non) on the basis of appeal rather than forcing people to go along with your Islamic way? In the U.S., all Christian and others (Jewish, etc.) have found that their faith community is healthier with this open "competition" (or standing on their own feet, having to attract people to their faith community). And Muslims need to learn to deal with criticism of their community, even of their religion, through discussion and modeling of the good that you offer, rather than going on a rampage.
Thanks, Justin, for posting this, and generating the discussion.
D.K. Norrisson