BeDeviant.com | Culture, Faith & Technology - Latest Comments in Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Nate Beaird — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:51:19 -0000

Well said!

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

D.K. Norrisson — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:31:17 -0000

Interesting video, and interesting comments. Some thoughts:
1. the video isn't advocating an attack on Islam or Muslims, but evangelism
2. I think that it is meant as a "wake up call," but that videos like this tend to be alarmist and to perhaps scare people rather than wake them up
3. it's unclear to me whether this video is suggesting that Christians need to start having more children?
4. it is clear to me that anyone who is not Muslim needs to come to terms with understanding and learning to relate to Muslims - it is definitely true that they (and others who are different than us, whoever we are) are coming - the world is shrinking, diversity is increasing, and we need to learn to live with others who are different. For me as a Christ-follower, it means that I need to learn to love and share Jesus with others who are different than I am (whether Muslim or other).
5. whether Christian or other, everyone finds it easiest to live in a country where the majority is like them; another challenge that is coming the way of non-Muslims is, can we learn to live in situations where Muslims are either a significant minority, or the majority?
6. as shown in the comments above, one thing that non Muslims tend to be uneasy about is the tendency (or the perceived tendency) for Muslims to impose a Muslim religious framework on society, when they are in control. This is rooted in the Islamic vision not to separate but to join religion and state, and to impose morality (this is also true, to some extent, of "fundamentalist" Christians). A question I have for Muslims in the world today is, can you agree to separate religion and state and to allow freedom of conscience, leaving people free both to practice their faith and to call others to it? I.e., can you embrace the free marketplace of ideas approach to society, and "compete" with others (religious and non) on the basis of appeal rather than forcing people to go along with your Islamic way? In the U.S., all Christian and others (Jewish, etc.) have found that their faith community is healthier with this open "competition" (or standing on their own feet, having to attract people to their faith community). And Muslims need to learn to deal with criticism of their community, even of their religion, through discussion and modeling of the good that you offer, rather than going on a rampage.

Thanks, Justin, for posting this, and generating the discussion.

D.K. Norrisson

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

jason kramme — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:29:19 -0000

7. It is just as possible to be "culturally Muslim" as it is to be "culturally Christian." The trend towards watered-down faith is happening in Muslim countries too.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

jason kramme — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:26:36 -0000

some thoughts:

1. All statistical projections are exactly that: projections.
2. Using fear tactics to inspire Christian faith is stupid considering how often God told us not to fear.
3. Europe (and the US) will be agnostic or atheistic before it becomes completley Islamic.
4. The period of time between the reformation and the twentieth century all but ensures that there will never again be a western theocracy.
5. The appeal for western converts to Islam is the life change required and bad associations from history. Our lives need to change and we need to own our history.
6. When it comes to using Scipture, Scripture isn't the problem, Users are.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Justin Wise — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:20:22 -0000

Dean used Scripture, true. Unfortunately, it is painfully out of context. You can quote Scripture to affirm any position one holds, just ask Fred Phelps.

The question isn't, "did you quote Scripture?" The question should be, "did you quote Scripture correctly." I don't believe he has. Context is king, not our own interpretations.

"Enthusiasm without knowledge is no good; haste makes mistakes."

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Dean — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:11:19 -0000

Agreed, it's not the best comparison. Also agreed on speaking the truth in love, though it may not be popular.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Justin Wise — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:47:11 -0000

"It's all in the intent." Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Nate Beaird — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:28:39 -0000

Overall, I think Dean and I are being seen as wanting to bash people over the head with the bible and water-board them until they confess Jesus as their savior. I hope you're all smart enough to know better, even though Justin and I may not agree, he can tell you that I'm not even close to that.

As far as what Dean has said: He used scripture to back up all his thoughts and statements. Aren't we taught to back up what we say or feel in scripture? By Saying his comments are stupid is to sy The Bible is stupid, and I know you don't mean that, right?

Love God. Love People. Tell the World.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Nate Beaird — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:27:44 -0000

It can be, that's what I said in the very first sentence. Don't take my response out-of-context. The Crusades, OK, I guess you got me there-however, I wasn't there killing people, and I think we can all agree the Dark Ages were...dark.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Susan — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:57:24 -0000

Justin, I think it really boils down to intent. What is the intent of the video? Is it to lift up and inspire or is it to cause fear and division?

When I explain sin to my kids it goes like this: Sometimes we make mistakes and we hurt someone and we didn't mean to do it...like you stepped on my toe, but it was an accident and you can say sorry and that's all we need to do. But sometimes you haul off and slug your sister. That's not an accident and that's a sin, and for that you need to say sorry to your sister AND to God.

It's all in the intent.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Susan — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:53:23 -0000

"It became our problem when uneducated, crazy people started strapping bombs to themselves to kill people who didn't believe what they believed. Does ANYone remember that? Why would a "peaceful Muslim" want to be apart of such a religion?"

People did some might bad stuff in the name of Christianity years ago too. I'm Catholic, but I'm well aware of my church's part in the crusades, in looking the other way during the Holocaust and so much more. But my faith is bigger than the church. Why can't a Muslim's faith be bigger than a few terroristic extremists?

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Dean — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:18:31 -0000

I was going to stop posting on here but I decided I needed to address one thing:

I shouldn't have said, "Please just stop with this nonsense." I should have just said, "Please, just stop." I didn't need to use the word nonsense. I apologize for that. I definitely feel very strongly about this subject, but I will not excuse myself insulting you in any way, shape or form. It's one thing to speak boldly and another to be insulting.

That is all.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Nate Beaird — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:49:37 -0000

I've never said we should take the "your Religion Sucks" approach. In fact, if you've read the rest of my comments, you'll notice that I've said this;

"I'm called to Love God, and Love People. I'm commissioned to "Tell the world about the Gospel." My goal is to love Muslims while I tell them about the God I love, but I'm not going to apologize for being a Christian."

Hey, I didn't make the video, I just thought it was interesting.

Love God. Love People. Tell the World.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Nate Beaird — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:36:23 -0000

As far as your friend on Facebook who said, "the blind hatred and intolerance [of these people who have posted on your blog scares me]. i'm pretty sure jesus was against both."

I feel like I'm taking "Crazy Pills!" Jesus wasn't tolerant of everyone, he hung out with the "sinners" to share the Truth with them, not to be tolerant of their sin and let them think it was OK.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Dave Sandell — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:08:30 -0000

But "your religion sucks" is not doing anyone any good. I want to meet the muslim who has found the message of Jesus compelling through a "your religion sucks" experience. I think we need to be developing relationships, friendships and trust. Let our lives embody Jesus. And see where that and prayer get us. It's working for guys like Carl Medearis and Rick Love. It's working for New Frontiers as best I understand it. This video doesn't scream relationship to me. It screams "quick, get the muslims out of here". And that's just not winning anyone over.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Nate Beaird — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:55:21 -0000

My parents loved me, and sometimes I didnt' FEEL loved, but later I realized they did the things they did because they loved me. Loving people is not always appeasing people, in fact, I'd say you love them more when you tell them the truth...in love. Not by saying "frooffy frooffy roses and daisies, what you believe is truth and what I believe is truth so let's be buddies."

Your comparison of loving your wife well and loving people who are believing in a false teaching of our God is a bad one.

Speak the Truth in love! It may not be popluar.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Nate Beaird — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:19:45 -0000

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Dean — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:54:40 -0000

No, but I don't see your point. I know a lot of people who believe false things, and I don't just run at them from the start and bash them with a Bible, but eventually, I do tell them what the Bible says. I would do the same thing if I knew a Muslim, but I don't know any.

I get it dude, so just stop. People are people. I'm not a racist. I've said it over and over again, this is a RELIGIOUS matter, not one of race. My concern is with Islam. Please, just stop with this nonsense.

2 Peter 3:9
He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The whole point is, with the people who follow Islam, or any other false religion, they THINK they know the truth. So, at some point you have to tell them the truth and it will be said or implied that there truth is, in fact, false. Islam denies the need for a Savior... is that false? Do they need a Savior? If so, you'd better let them know it.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Dean — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:14:12 -0000

For the record, I'm done at this point. I've said what I needed to say.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Justin Wise — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:07:37 -0000

One last question, do you know a Muslim personally?

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Dean — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:50:12 -0000

I strongly disagree. Jesus told us that He is THE way, THE truth and THE life and no man comes unto the Father but by HIM. I don't like to talk about what Jesus would do, but what He did do, and what He did do was tell people that He was the Son of God and that no man can come to the Father but by Him. He did warn of false prophets and false teachings.

By the way... Mohamed was a false prophet by the way, and Islam is a false teaching. I'm not afraid to say it, even if you are.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Justin Wise — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:48:09 -0000

Dean... These are great statistics and quotes. They really are. I'm wondering if you might be missing the point of my post...

My position in all of this is that the people in this video and the people who responded to what I wrote on Facebook are making Muslims out to be the enemy. This is unbiblical. It is wrong. Muslims are not the enemy to Christianity, nor to Christians.

"We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers and the powers of the air..."

I'm wondering how many people who quote Bible verses at length and call Islam a false religion actually know a Muslim personally. My guess is not many, unfortunately. When there is a face to the "them," in my experience things aren't as black and white as we want them to be.

Point being, it shouldn't matter to a Christian if Muslims believe in Allah, Buddha, Shiva, the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... whatever. It ultimately should not matter if all Muslims everywhere are extremists (they aren't) who want to chop everyone's head off (they don't).

Our faith in Christ–the power of our faith–does not rely on how many children we can produce, but the life-changing power of the Spirit. I seem to remember a rag-tag little band of 12 men, surrounded by one of the most powerful and dominant regimes the world has ever known, yet somehow they managed to let God change the course of human history through them.

How?

For starters, it certainly wasn't by having more children.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Justin Wise — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:32:29 -0000

Dean, I get where you're coming from. I really do. I understand your desire to preach the Gospel to Muslims and stand up for the truth of Christianity. I get that. I hear you on that. I long for that day when people from all tribes, tongues, and nations will confess that "Jesus is Lord." It will be glorious.

My problem with what you're suggesting is that I believe your approach may actually hinder Muslims from walking with Christ. Your intentions, as good as they are, are actually repelling people from the Gospel you and I love so much. I can't stand by idly and watch that happen.

I'll be honest: I cannot fathom Jesus speaking to Muslims in the way that you're suggesting. I cannot imagine Jesus telling a Muslim his religion is "false" and that it has its origins with the "Father of lies." I don't see that in Scripture and I don't sense that from the Spirit of Christ. Usually Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for the Pharisees, who were Jews just like Jesus.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Dave Sandell — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:25:54 -0000

I recently heard someone say that while we aren't called to go out there and make people like us, we're not called to go out there and make people *not* like us, either. My fear with the way many people have gone about "loving" Muslims is that we're nailing the latter category. If our baseline is fear (which this video serves up like a four-course meal), then I don't see how love flows out of that.

Re: Are Reproducing Muslims the Enemy?

Dan Bryan — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:14:53 -0000

I think love is a two way street. I may think I'm loving you, but if you don't feel that way how can I be certain I've loved you well? I'm married, it certainly doesn't work that way with my wife. I can't say "well honey I'm loving you well, don't tell me I'm not, I decide you don't."

There are certainly parts of our world that our lost and dying. There are also some parts that are beautiful, wonderful - and all of it is redeemable.

I labored through the truth project (all 37 episodes), I rather liked Flash - and more than anything my heart went out to him. I don't know his whole story, but I imagine he must've been hurt pretty badly to say "f" the church.

You missed me a bit I think. It's HOW we are telling people. They are not just making that reaction up out of nowhere, whether it is us or the person who tried to "save" them before us there's a reason people react that way. So to your question, "are you helping them or hating them" - you're not helping them if you don't take the time to know them and you only want to drop a salvation bomb on them.

Further, if you want a good example of what I mean by things like this breeding fear just look at the man behind the organization that created the Truth Project. James Dobson, a once credible voice for the church, did nothing but illicit fear, hate, and doomsday worries in this ridiculous letter written only a few months ago: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/files/Focusletter.pd...

We're so focused on getting it right, "truth", that we've forgotten how to treat people as human beings whether we disagree with their ideologies or not.