good points. I work additionally at Starbucks to meet people in my community and there are always a few couples whom I am not sure about. I won't treat them differently or anything silly like that, but it's crazy how "out there" people can be....
k
· 11 months ago
meh. people can do what they like, make their choices, possibly mistakes. it is, of course, their call to make.
in my observations, many times people that are having an affair know they are, of course, going to get caught, or at least the odds are in that favor, and they do it anyway. too afraid of confrontation, so they'd rather let it blow up in their face, or more likely, it's a strictly emotional decision, and logic plays little to no role. perhaps their marriages were the mistake, and the affair is a vehicle to start correcting that mistake.
'You may think it brings you life. You may think the other person “gets you,” but they don’t. They’re selfish. And so are you. You’ll destroy your life.'
that's a fairly bold statement, not knowing these people at all. i'd suggest you quit projection your particular brand of morality onto strangers, and not worry about them.
"
Justin Wise
· 11 months ago
@k: You bring up good points. I'm interested in your "particular brand of morality" comment. Do you consider the ethics of adultery to be situationally dependent? In other words, are there "brands of morality" (love that term, by the way) that condone adultery?
k
· 11 months ago
i suggest situations are rarely, if ever, "black and white." we all live in an inter-relational world. ideally if a person in in a failed relationship, or a troubled one, it is likely best it is resolved independently, one way or the other before beginning another relationship.
finances, children, family, guilt, other people and feelings for them etc etc are going to modify that ideal, of course, but it is to the individual to make the call on what they do with that complex environment. staying in an unhappy relationship/marriage because of a system of morals in and of itself is not ideal. begining an affair also is not ideal. therefore, in the middle lies what one can choose to do, each solution baring its pros and cons.
sitting on the outside passing judgment is not terribly useful. pity for a person in that situation is obvious, but anger and/or judgment seems to produce, well, itself. anger and judgment.
are their largely selfish people that step out on a perfectly functioning marriage/relationship? i suppose, quite possibly, but i would guess nor very probable. effects usually have causes. is it the most productive solution to a failing partnership? surely not, but i don't think it's one the casual observer can make a blanket statement condemning.
Jeremy Anderberg
· 11 months ago
I personally know the effects of an affair, and it destroys more than just the people in them, but entire families.. Be smart and think about the other people affected.
As for approaching this 'couple', I think that's dangerous territory. Even though your assumptions may be educated, they're still assumptions. However, you are the pastor, not me. :-)
Justin Wise
· 11 months ago
@Jeremy: Confrontation would be dangerous, I agree. I like what a friend said, "Call up Kerry and just tell her how much you love her in an excessively audible voice... ;)"
Shane Vander Hart
· 11 months ago
Hey Justin... your assumptions are likely correct. It is dangerous territory that they are in even if they are currently not having an affair. While I have to for my work with SOY meet with pastors and potential volunteers for the opposite sex - I keep it business like and infrequent. If they are meeting regularly this could end up leading to something else if it hasn't already.
Regarding confronting... I like the call your wife option. I would only confront if I knew them.
evanshawblackerby
· 11 months ago
on some level we should want to get involved, but we can't hold non-believers (if they are that) to believer's standards. Christ is the healer and unfortunately all else is just a symptom of not knowing him. We can try to heal the symptoms.... but the root wound will still remain.
Jeremy Anderberg
· 11 months ago
totally agree.. to pass judgment on them is not our place, but Christ's. Our job is to just love like crazy.
Erik U.
· 11 months ago
I've known of many ministry professionals who, like you mention in your article, have "emotional affairs" with church members. There may be no sexual interaction, but the way they communicate and the kinds of things they entrust to people other than their spouse can be JUST AS DAMAGING. I'm discovering there are many layers of intimacy that spouses share with one another...sexual intimacy is only one of them; and is often not the most important. Why is it worse to share your penis with someone than to share the secrets of your heart with someone who is not your spouse?
You always could channel your inner 80 year-old and say something like, "it's so nice to see such a happily married couple taking time during the work day to talk with each other". How's that for passive-aggressive? Or, if that doesn't work, go with Bible tracts.
Justin Wise
· 11 months ago
@Erik U: Love this:
"You always could channel your inner 80 year-old and say something like, "it's so nice to see such a happily married couple taking time during the work day to talk with each other". How's that for passive-aggressive? Or, if that doesn't work, go with Bible tracts."
Classic.
Anon
· 11 months ago
You conservative right-wing nutjobs are ignorant and overstepping your bounds on so many levels it makes me glad to be an atheist. So what if two consenting ADULTS are having a conversation that involves topics that YOU think should not be talked about? Move to a different location. For you to assume an affair strictly through body language and topic of conversation make you sir, a moron. Most normal people have friends of the opposite sex who engage in all kinds conversation including what you overheard. Just because you live your life dedicating your life to ridiculous moral code written thousands of years ago doesn't give you the credentials to call people out. Karma is a bitch Pastor, I hope it doesn't bite you too hard.
Justin Wise
· 11 months ago
@Anon: You seem really upset by this topic. Are you upset more by the fact that I am speaking to adultery or the fact that I am suggesting there are certain rules to life that one should or should not live by?
I can understand your frustration. Really, I can. If it would have been as easy to "move to another table", trust me, I would have done it. And if you'll re-read the post, you'll see that I say it's not what they were saying (i.e. content of their discussion) but the way in which they were speaking to each other. That was the part that made me think, "Is there more to this than meets the eye."
If I could ask one more question, you believe that the Bible (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to by "moral code") is ridiculous. On what grounds do you believe it is ridiculous? Just curious.
Thanks for your feedback and thanks for reading.
Anon
· 11 months ago
I am not at all upset at the topic. I happen to be a 26 year old man who is in a loving 4 year relationship with a woman who would not, IN THE SLIGHTEST, be offended or upset if I were having the above mentioned conversation with one of my female friend. In fact she loves that I can share stories and exploits with others as it makes OUR relationship stronger, in that it builds trust.
What I AM upset about is you using Juice blog to share this piece while using very explicit details about the couple. You don't know if anyone reading knows these two, and IF it is just two close PLATONIC friends sharing weekend sex stories you just opened up a whole can worms that you have no right doing. It's an abuse of the blog granted to you and an abuse of your SUPPOSED non-judgemental nature of the cloth. That's it. Just a super obnoxious post by someone who is ignorant to these types of friendships and showing complete disrespect and class in making your original topic.
As to your other questions, I choose not to answer. I don't find it necessary to comment on my obvious disrespect for organized religion. To each their own.
Good day.
Justin Wise
· 11 months ago
@Anon: I think we're missing each other. Or at least, you might be misinterpreting what I'm saying. I am certainly not suggesting that men and women cannot be friends in the platonic sense. That would be absurd. Nor am I suggesting we cannot share mundane details of our lives with the people whom we find ourselves in relationship from day to day. Again, absurd.
I would imagine your girlfriend (fiance?) would be upset if you were treating another woman the way this young guy was treating this young woman. I would also imagine you would be upset if you saw her talking to another man in the way I observed this couple to be this morning. But, you're not me so I don't want to assume.
As far as details regarding this couple, I don't see how anyone could know whom I speaking of besides the couple themselves. There was no one else in the coffee shop but me. I give no details of what they look like, what they were wearing, etc. Obviously I would never want to hurt or belittle someone, nor put them in a compromising situation but for with their own consciences. I am sorry if that was not clear.
Do you live in the Des Moines area? If so, I'd love to meet up for coffee sometime if you'd be willing. Let me know: justin(at)bedeviant.com
KeithW
· 11 months ago
It strikes me that Anon wants to remain "anon" as a cowardly way to say what he thinks without taking the responsibility for his words or his thoughts. You, Justin, have the pair to say what you think and put it out there. I may not agree with everything you've said but at least you have the "juice" to say it. Good for you!
Justin Wise
· 11 months ago
@KeithW: Thanks. Now, don't go getting all 'Ville up in this piece!
Rhett Smith
· 11 months ago
Justin,
I wouldn't say anything to anyone i don't know...most likely...but to someone I do know...yes. It's just part of being accountable to one another...Christian or not, there is a certain amount of accountability we enter into when we have friendships with others.
What you described is all too common, and all too dangerous...seems subtle and harmless...but that's not the reality that couples bring in to my office a year later. Intimacy is created in many ways, and we must be wise as husbands and wives, etc.
rhett
Mandy
· 11 months ago
Justin - interesting post, and interesting responses. I can relate to your experience, except that I did know the two people involved. It was the same sort of thing - nothing they actually ever said indicated they were having an affair, it was just the way they said and did things - it just wasn't what I thought was appropriate for two people that were married (and had children) - and it wasn't just me that thought so; everyone in our common circle talked about it when they weren't around. I'm sure that wasn't the appropriate thing to do either. However, I was not "close" friends with either of them and didn't feel like it was my place to say anything (which, I realize probably means I shouldn't have been talking about it with other people either). I think when it comes to something so incredibly serious, the person being confronted needs to feel like the person doing the confronting is sincerely concerned about them personally, not just the misdeed they may be involved in.
Rob
· 11 months ago
I have several good friends that I would have the same type of conversation with, we'd be friendly and talk in a way that may make the average person think we are intimate or cheating, but we in fact are 100% loyal to our spouses. I think its just a personality thing. When you work with someone day in day out you can develop a certain level of friendship that others may not get, or may perceive as an intimate relationship.
So who knows, were they cheating? Maybe, But you never really know, and saying something to someone instead of minding your business could land you in a terribly embarrassing situation if not worst.
I think we need to be careful here. Emotional intimacy does not necessarily denote adultery.
Ask yourself: would this situation be viewed the same way if it were two female friends? If a person is emotionally intimate with a friend of the same gender, is that an affair? What if a person is attracted to both men and women? Does that mean that they could never have a close friendship with anyone who wasn't their spouse?
I agree that if you're having an affair, you need to stop it. But it's also perfectly possible to have an emotionally intimate friendship without slipping into the realm of cheating.
Different couples have different policies. It's important to have a clear idea of what's appropriate for your marriage. What works for me and my spouse may not be the same as what works for you and yours.
It's important for couples to be talking to each other about this issue, to determine the boundaries that work best for their relationship. The situation you described above would not be an issue for my spouse (under most circumstances). But I would have brought it up and we would have discussed it regardless, just to make sure.
Almost always, the biggest source of pain in an affair is the deception. If you find yourself deliberately concealing details of your friendships and interactions from your spouse, then that's a huge red flag. You need to stop and bring the situation to your spouse right away so that you can discuss it and figure out what to do.
In today's world, most of us are going to be put in situations where we could come into contact -- professionally or casually -- with people that we could potentially be attracted to. If you go into that kind of a situation without a clear idea of what works for you and your spouse, you could be setting yourself up for trouble.
Sure, you could just go in with the blinders of "I'm never going to become friends with anyone I could possibly be attracted to", but for most people, that treading dangerously close to denial. And denial has a tendency to lead us down slippery slopes. If you assume that you're immune, it's easier to get blindsided.
When it comes to your own relationships, communication and honesty is the key. When it comes to other people's relationships, we really shouldn't make assumptions based on circumstantial evidence. For all you know, those two people could have both of their spouses' knowledge and blessing to be meeting the way they do. It would certainly be a saner world if that were the case.
Marie
· 10 months ago
I think of conversations that I have had with friends who are married, Justin, and wonder if someone sitting by me could have misinterpreted our conversations to be an affair (we are close friends). I wouldn't do that, and neither would the married male friends that I occasionally, for one reason or another, have lunch with (ok with their wife) or maybe a soda or coffee. The reasons are valid. That's part of why I like these friends as people--they have the same values that I do. And it would hurt to think that someone siting next to me who doesn't know me would make assumptions like that and make snide remarks, online or directly to me. But, on the other hand, you were there watching, and I wasn't. You may be right. I don't think you should say anything to them--you really don't know what the situation is,and you could really hurt people making assumptions without checking out the facts first. Pastors, because of the position that they hold, have a great responsibility to check out the facts FIRST (with the people involved) before they use their position to possibly cause a great deal of hurt, based only on assumptions that you make, and the friend sitting next to you reinforces. On the other hand, if they are having an affair (married or not)--God never says that that is ok. Despite what our society says. They most certainly wll hurt other people. But I doubt that they would listen to you--they simply don't care about the hurt they inflict on others (immature and selfish)--that's who they are at this point. It's just too easy to brush off consequences and find others to reinforce what they are doing. But your post made mahy people think about this.
All Comments
it is, of course, their call to make.
in my observations, many times people that are having an affair know they are, of course, going to get caught, or at least the odds are in that favor, and they do it anyway. too afraid of confrontation, so they'd rather let it blow up in their face, or more likely, it's a strictly emotional decision, and logic plays little to no role. perhaps their marriages were the mistake, and the affair is a vehicle to start correcting that mistake.
'You may think it brings you life. You may think the other person “gets you,” but they don’t. They’re selfish. And so are you. You’ll destroy your life.'
that's a fairly bold statement, not knowing these people at all. i'd suggest you quit projection your particular brand of morality onto strangers, and not worry about them.
"
finances, children, family, guilt, other people and feelings for them etc etc are going to modify that ideal, of course, but it is to the individual to make the call on what they do with that complex environment. staying in an unhappy relationship/marriage because of a system of morals in and of itself is not ideal. begining an affair also is not ideal. therefore, in the middle lies what one can choose to do, each solution baring its pros and cons.
sitting on the outside passing judgment is not terribly useful. pity for a person in that situation is obvious, but anger and/or judgment seems to produce, well, itself. anger and judgment.
are their largely selfish people that step out on a perfectly functioning marriage/relationship? i suppose, quite possibly, but i would guess nor very probable. effects usually have causes. is it the most productive solution to a failing partnership? surely not, but i don't think it's one the casual observer can make a blanket statement condemning.
As for approaching this 'couple', I think that's dangerous territory. Even though your assumptions may be educated, they're still assumptions. However, you are the pastor, not me. :-)
Regarding confronting... I like the call your wife option. I would only confront if I knew them.
You always could channel your inner 80 year-old and say something like, "it's so nice to see such a happily married couple taking time during the work day to talk with each other". How's that for passive-aggressive? Or, if that doesn't work, go with Bible tracts.
"You always could channel your inner 80 year-old and say something like, "it's so nice to see such a happily married couple taking time during the work day to talk with each other". How's that for passive-aggressive? Or, if that doesn't work, go with Bible tracts."
Classic.
I can understand your frustration. Really, I can. If it would have been as easy to "move to another table", trust me, I would have done it. And if you'll re-read the post, you'll see that I say it's not what they were saying (i.e. content of their discussion) but the way in which they were speaking to each other. That was the part that made me think, "Is there more to this than meets the eye."
If I could ask one more question, you believe that the Bible (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to by "moral code") is ridiculous. On what grounds do you believe it is ridiculous? Just curious.
Thanks for your feedback and thanks for reading.
What I AM upset about is you using Juice blog to share this piece while using very explicit details about the couple. You don't know if anyone reading knows these two, and IF it is just two close
PLATONIC friends sharing weekend sex stories you just opened up a whole can worms that you have no right doing. It's an abuse of the blog granted to you and an abuse of your SUPPOSED non-judgemental nature of the cloth. That's it. Just a super obnoxious post by someone who is ignorant to these types of friendships and showing complete disrespect and class in making your original topic.
As to your other questions, I choose not to answer. I don't find it necessary to comment on my obvious disrespect for organized religion. To each their own.
Good day.
I would imagine your girlfriend (fiance?) would be upset if you were treating another woman the way this young guy was treating this young woman. I would also imagine you would be upset if you saw her talking to another man in the way I observed this couple to be this morning. But, you're not me so I don't want to assume.
As far as details regarding this couple, I don't see how anyone could know whom I speaking of besides the couple themselves. There was no one else in the coffee shop but me. I give no details of what they look like, what they were wearing, etc. Obviously I would never want to hurt or belittle someone, nor put them in a compromising situation but for with their own consciences. I am sorry if that was not clear.
Do you live in the Des Moines area? If so, I'd love to meet up for coffee sometime if you'd be willing. Let me know: justin(at)bedeviant.com
I wouldn't say anything to anyone i don't know...most likely...but to someone I do know...yes. It's just part of being accountable to one another...Christian or not, there is a certain amount of accountability we enter into when we have friendships with others.
What you described is all too common, and all too dangerous...seems subtle and harmless...but that's not the reality that couples bring in to my office a year later. Intimacy is created in many ways, and we must be wise as husbands and wives, etc.
rhett
So who knows, were they cheating? Maybe, But you never really know, and saying something to someone instead of minding your business could land you in a terribly embarrassing situation if not worst.
I think we need to be careful here. Emotional intimacy does not necessarily denote adultery.
Ask yourself: would this situation be viewed the same way if it were two female friends? If a person is emotionally intimate with a friend of the same gender, is that an affair? What if a person is attracted to both men and women? Does that mean that they could never have a close friendship with anyone who wasn't their spouse?
I agree that if you're having an affair, you need to stop it. But it's also perfectly possible to have an emotionally intimate friendship without slipping into the realm of cheating.
Different couples have different policies. It's important to have a clear idea of what's appropriate for your marriage. What works for me and my spouse may not be the same as what works for you and yours.
It's important for couples to be talking to each other about this issue, to determine the boundaries that work best for their relationship. The situation you described above would not be an issue for my spouse (under most circumstances). But I would have brought it up and we would have discussed it regardless, just to make sure.
Almost always, the biggest source of pain in an affair is the deception. If you find yourself deliberately concealing details of your friendships and interactions from your spouse, then that's a huge red flag. You need to stop and bring the situation to your spouse right away so that you can discuss it and figure out what to do.
In today's world, most of us are going to be put in situations where we could come into contact -- professionally or casually -- with people that we could potentially be attracted to. If you go into that kind of a situation without a clear idea of what works for you and your spouse, you could be setting yourself up for trouble.
Sure, you could just go in with the blinders of "I'm never going to become friends with anyone I could possibly be attracted to", but for most people, that treading dangerously close to denial. And denial has a tendency to lead us down slippery slopes. If you assume that you're immune, it's easier to get blindsided.
When it comes to your own relationships, communication and honesty is the key. When it comes to other people's relationships, we really shouldn't make assumptions based on circumstantial evidence. For all you know, those two people could have both of their spouses' knowledge and blessing to be meeting the way they do. It would certainly be a saner world if that were the case.
On the other hand, if they are having an affair (married or not)--God never says that that is ok. Despite what our society says. They most certainly wll hurt other people. But I doubt that they would listen to you--they simply don't care about the hurt they inflict on others (immature and selfish)--that's who they are at this point. It's just too easy to brush off consequences and find others to reinforce what they are doing. But your post made mahy people think about this.