I only saw a bit of the memorial. But the fact is, he was still a man, he was still human. He loved, he laughed, he hurt, and he had a family that loved him dearly. I wish we would remember that we all have tripped up before, because we're really good at pointing the finger at someone else.
Justin Wise
· 5 months ago
If nothing else, he deserves the same grace that the rest of us enjoy everyday!
Josh Wagner
· 5 months ago
Amen to that.
webgal
· 5 months ago
I LOVED MJ back in the day. And I respect his talent to this day. And I enjoy the memories I have of listening to his music, watching his videos and dance moves.
I find the hatin' tired. This man had an impact. More than most of the haters will ever have. His talent is indisputable, no matter what. He was a father, son, friend, brother. And that seemed to be important to him beyond most things. He may have had questionable moments. But don't we all? Let those without sin cast the first stone.
RIP MJ. You WILL be missed.
Justin Wise
· 5 months ago
Preach it, girl! That seems to be the consensus... About the stone-throwing and such. Good point.
jadewicks
· 5 months ago
Beth (second from last post above) took the words out of my mouth. All judging aside, it's clear to me that MJ loved the world through children's eyes-- to see the good in everyone. I had such mixed emotions watching the tribute. I do agree that some of this has been turning into idolizing, but maybe looking deeper, it's just a respect and appreciation for someone that touched us in such a memorable way.
God does have a purpose for each of us. I hope many of us take the idea of love and compassion for other people from this. I'm hoping MJ is finally at peace and that his family is able to pick up the pieces...especially his children. I'm praying for them.
JakeSchwein
· 5 months ago
I loved the memorial!! What an honoring morning for his family!! I thought it focused on all the positives of MJ's life and the truth of what he accomplished for music in general. I am sad that people hurl stones!! I guess I am sad more than angry for MJ. He was robbed of a childhood and he was messed up in some areas...but come on!!! I think we need to all reread John 8!
I thought the most ironic thing was that so-called Christians were the ones throwing the biggest stones...to be honest that pissed me off big time! The very people that should be there in love regardless of the person... today made a joke out of what Christ called us to live like.
God I am sorry for your people and how they made a mockery of your name by not loving like you would love!!!
Justin Wise
· 5 months ago
You know, Jake, that's my position as well. The poor guy left childhood without a chance, it seemed. Why do you think that Christians are the ones hurling the biggest stones? What is it inside of us that makes us act in such a way?
amlindaman
· 5 months ago
I watched the memorial and was very touched. However, if we really continue to "idolize" people in the way we do Hollywood, athletes, pop musicians, politicians etc, we really loose sight of the common but extraordinary things that go on right in our own back yards, such a surgeon saving a life in the operating room, a Stephens Minister sitting with someone who struggles emotionally, a woman passing 20 dollars to a homeless person...At some point, this obsession with those we put on a pedestal needs to stop. The only one we should be putting on a pedestal and adoring is Almighty God.
Jodi
· 5 months ago
I have been thinking a lot about how AWESOME the funeral was in a way that united the entire world. We can relate to each other, we can mourn together, discuss, give opinions about someone who touched our lives in different, yet similar ways. I think it is a great reflection of how the church should be united globally. Yes, he was just a man, and no, he should not be 'idolized', but it is amazing to see the world unite to give honor to a man that touched many lives. It is an encouraging thing to witness and really powerful.
amlindaman
· 5 months ago
I agree, one of the most interesting things we see when tragedy happens is the way everyone unites. Isn't it sad this kind of unification can't happen every single day? Michael Jackson would have loved his own funeral for this very reason, not because he wanted to be singled out as someone great and special, but wanted everyone in the world to love one another. It's a very simple concept and in some ways, perhaps this is a reminder-message from God as to how we should treat one another. My main deal with MJ was his phenomenal music& dancing abilities and it saddens me he died so young. However, should he have been honored the way dignitaries are-- with closing of streets, assembly in a place such as the Staple Center, and LOTS of time on national TV? I don't know. It isn't justified when you actually break it down, yet there I was, watching like millions of others and asking myself, what was I hoping to hear or learn?
Ben
· 5 months ago
Justin, this seems to be a typical liberal position. If someone disagrees with your point of view, then you are hating. Because people have strong concern over the glorification of Michael Jackson and simply state that this is being overdone, they are suddenly called haters. Because people are simply pointing out facts that he had done some stuff that was way out of line, they are considered haters. That is ridiculous. We all love each other when we get into like minded groups but hate it when someone points out the other realities that are simply ignored.
That is the main issue, nothing more nothing less. Grace is great but idolizing someone isn't.
Dave
· 5 months ago
What in the world are you even talking about?
Ben
· 5 months ago
The use of the word haters. It is an ad hominum attack towards people who disagree with your point of view. It is commonly used in many circles to diminish others opinions. I think it mixes in quite well with the conversation.
JustinWise
· 5 months ago
"Justin, this seems to be a typical liberal position." Respectfully, so what? Is the only valid position to you a conservative one (which you seem to be writing from)?
"If someone disagrees with your point of view, then you are hating." That's not true. You can disagree with me all day long. That wasn't the point. Michael Jackson, the man, was just like you and like me: Warts and all. When people attack him based on what he did or did not do when he was alive I wonder what basis do they have for those attacks? Hence, "hatin'" (I would also do well to acknowledge that "hatin'" is slang.)
"Because people have strong concern over the glorification of Michael Jackson and simply state that this is being overdone, they are suddenly called haters. " How much of this is Michael Jackson's fault? One cannot control how others respond to them, much less post mortem.
"Because people are simply pointing out facts that he had done some stuff that was way out of line, they are considered haters." In all honesty, what do you hope to gain by pointing out one man's (obvious) faults?
You have four different arguments going on, none of which are coherent. I've said it before to you, Ben, but how would Jesus approach this situation?
yooper1714
· 5 months ago
I think the argument holds coherency simply because there is a strong half truth in making this guy look like a god; which most of the media has done in the last week.
The church does no better by making Michael a Christian, simply because he was something big. Most of the songs yesterday were all Christian based but yet it downgrades the message of salvation. I can't judge his heart only God can but lets as a church not say "he is in heaven" when we really don't know.
Well from your point of view Jesus would approach it in grace, I agree that Michael is loved the same way as anyone else but I, and many others, are also tired of being accused of hatred simply because you say, "why are we glorifying a man that has had such a shady life?" We certainly would not do the same for a murderer and I am sure most of the people here would not have let their child sleep over at MJ's house if he were still alive. They are relevant points of view that get overlooked because we want to sentimentalize the whole situation. Boy, we are both straightforward with each other but I appreciate your views. =)
And you used "haters" in your facebook post from what I was referring to, not your title of the blog. Just an addendum.
yooper1714
· 5 months ago
Now I blogged about it, so check it out if you want. Am I A Hater? http://bit.ly/P3RpK
Good conversation Justin, you do challenge me.
Justin Wise
· 5 months ago
Here's the thing, we look at the death of Michael Jackson through our cultural lenses. To some people, I can see why it may seem like it is a bit much. But remember, none of us observe a situation like this without cultural influences.
The American culture says, "Get on with it. He's dead. Life must go on." The Christian culture says, "We shouldn't worship anyone but God." So when we see what looks like a sustained dwelling on one's death as well as a perceived idolization of a man (in this case MJ), everyone cultural button in our body is pushed.
Contrast this with what we see in the pages of Scripture. Look at the death of Lazarus even. Jesus comes upon the scene where there is literal weeping and gnashing of teeth over a man–a flesh-and-blood man. Women were wearing black. Dust was being thrown on heads. Everyone was crying. And it lasted for days. Even Jesus joined in the ritual. Jesus wept.
Lazarus was not a king (at least, not from what we can tell). Lazarus was just a regular dude, but his culture–Jesus' culture–said that this was how you mourned for someone who meant a lot to you.
To put it in context, MJ's memorial service would have been a warm-up for the people of Jesus' day! Regardless of how you may feel about him personally (what I feel you wrongly classify as "the truth"), his life and his music meant the world to a large amount of people. Because of that, they are going to respond to his death out of that connection. It is unconscionable to pass judgment on how people respond to his death because it offends your cultural sensibilities.
My point is this: You (the imperial 'you') do not have a monopoly on the truth. In this instance, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to react to MJ's death. Simply because it does not line up with how you or I might respond does not make it wrong. Just different.
Justin Wise
· 5 months ago
Here's the thing, we look at the death of Michael Jackson through our cultural lenses. To some people, I can see why it may seem like it is a bit much. But remember, none of us observe a situation like this without cultural influences.
The American culture says, "Get on with it. He's dead. Life must go on." The Christian culture says, "We shouldn't worship anyone but God." So when we see what looks like a sustained dwelling on one's death as well as a perceived idolization of a man (in this case MJ), every cultural button in our body is pushed.
Contrast this with what we see in the pages of Scripture. Look at the death of Lazarus even. Jesus comes upon the scene where there is literal weeping and gnashing of teeth over a man–a flesh-and-blood man. Women were wearing black. Dust was being thrown on heads. Everyone was crying. And it lasted for days. Even Jesus joined in the ritual. Jesus wept.
Lazarus was not a king (at least, not from what we can tell). Lazarus was just a regular dude, but his culture–Jesus' culture–said that this was how you mourned for someone who meant a lot to you.
To put it in context, MJ's memorial service would have been a warm-up for the people of Jesus' day! Regardless of how you may feel about him personally (what I feel you wrongly classify as "the truth"), his life and his music meant the world to a large amount of people. Because of that, they are going to respond to his death out of that connection. It is unconscionable to pass judgment on how people respond to his death because it offends your cultural sensibilities.
My point is this: You (the imperial 'you') do not have a monopoly on the truth. In this instance, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to react to MJ's death. Simply because it does not line up with how you or I might respond does not make it wrong. Just different.
Michael Koenig
· 5 months ago
Testing. Please ignore.
Mariah
· 5 months ago
I could say a lot about the memorial, but much of it has already been said. In the end, I was left reflecting on the last man's prayer: "Even the king of pop must bow his knee to the King of Kings."
skygoneblue
· 5 months ago
It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that...
- The people "idolizing" him now were probably his biggest fans, and are dealing with death the way any of us would... - The people overly concerned with MJ being idolized aren't real broken up over his death, but perhaps feel as though they should, so they cast stones at his idolizing fans to remove attention from themselves... - The people who are "hating" on MJ now are simply distancing themselves from what is nothing less than a very painful event for a lot of people, or are dealing with death differently than most people... - The people who are lifting MJ up as a good person are probably doing so in response to such vicious accusations...
I just see this cyclical discussion that is totally fruitless.
Yes, he was human, just like us. Ergo, he made some mistakes. Due to his world-wide fame, his mistakes were grossly publicized. Get over it. Yes, he was a revolutionary, and a legend in the field of music. Due to his death, he will likely be over publicized for a long time to come. Get over it.
Ben
· 5 months ago
I understand your point about fans idolizing him but it was almost like we were forced into this glorification of MJ through the media coverage. It isn't about stone throwing or judging, it is simply stating facts about who he was: good, bad and ugly. He was a world-wide famous person that had a lot of good years but also had a lot of bad years. Does that mean because he died, due to a likely drug overdose, that we turn a blind eye to it? This bothers me and should bother everyone because we end up getting fed half-truths in order to swallow what we sentimentally want to accept. The vicious accusations that are simply reporting truth is ridiculous and in turn people who are speaking truth are being called racist, which is not the case. Just some thoughts from the other side of the spectrum =)
Jodi
· 5 months ago
"forced into this glorification of MJ through the media coverage." - I honestly think if anyone in today's age and time is "forced" into any thought about a person, product, idea, event... etc., then it is due to their own lack of efforts.
“It isn't about stone throwing or judging, it is simply stating facts about who he was” – I don’t know about you, but I’ve seen some boulders. And how can you mention the media persuading thoughts and then claim to state facts. Were you there?
“Does that mean because he died, due to a likely drug overdose, that we turn a blind eye to it?” – If you have a drug problem, take this as a sign to go and seek help. If you don’t have a drug problem, turn a blind eye.
“This bothers me and should bother everyone because we end up getting fed half-truths in order to swallow what we sentimentally want to accept.” – I don’t think anyone is unaware that a possibly drug overdose is in question. And it makes me proud to see that certain people aren’t swayed in their feelings of grief because of it. Who am I to judge? Isn’t it a good thing to want to see the GOOD in someone else?
“vicious accusations that are simply reporting truth is ridiculous and in turn people who are speaking truth are being called racist” – What?!?!
I have been enjoying MJ’s eulogy. I am happy to be participating, on some level, during this time in history. It is one of those special moments that the world unites in memory. No matter what views you have, this (on some level) is a bond of humanity.
Mikes
· 5 months ago
I can't believe these people...
rhettsmith
· 5 months ago
just testing here...i couldn't leave a comment here yesterday...
maybe it has to do with the length of the comment...
so let's see if this goes through when I hit submit
Mikes
· 5 months ago
it did! Congrats!
Susan
· 5 months ago
MJ...it's sad that he died. It's sad when anyone dies. A life is lost and that life was likely valuable to someone else (child, parent, sibling, friend). He had immense talent but he led a very strange life, some (likely most) of it not of his own making. From a very early age his life was not what most would call normal and we've seen that in countless child stars. I imagine that's why Brooke Shields was so broken up...she lived the child star life, so she gets that.
I feel sadness for him because I think his life was very much not his own. As for the "fall," well, we're all human. I don't say that to condone or condemn. It is a fact that something happened, but we're probably never going to know just exactly what it was.
I have no hate for MJ. But I'm a bit alarmed about people wailing in the streets and the woman who was interviewed saying she hadn't stopped crying (this was 6 days later). I think that kind of grief for a public figure one only "knew" through the radio or TV is rather absurd. It also bothers me that the city of LA and it's resources were so heavily burdened in a time when most city governments can't take too many more straws to the camel's back.
Michael Jackson, rest in peace...a peace the world did not give you.
All Comments
I find the hatin' tired. This man had an impact. More than most of the haters will ever have. His talent is indisputable, no matter what. He was a father, son, friend, brother. And that seemed to be important to him beyond most things. He may have had questionable moments. But don't we all? Let those without sin cast the first stone.
RIP MJ. You WILL be missed.
God does have a purpose for each of us. I hope many of us take the idea of love and compassion for other people from this. I'm hoping MJ is finally at peace and that his family is able to pick up the pieces...especially his children. I'm praying for them.
I thought the most ironic thing was that so-called Christians were the ones throwing the biggest stones...to be honest that pissed me off big time! The very people that should be there in love regardless of the person... today made a joke out of what Christ called us to live like.
God I am sorry for your people and how they made a mockery of your name by not loving like you would love!!!
That is the main issue, nothing more nothing less. Grace is great but idolizing someone isn't.
"If someone disagrees with your point of view, then you are hating." That's not true. You can disagree with me all day long. That wasn't the point. Michael Jackson, the man, was just like you and like me: Warts and all. When people attack him based on what he did or did not do when he was alive I wonder what basis do they have for those attacks? Hence, "hatin'" (I would also do well to acknowledge that "hatin'" is slang.)
"Because people have strong concern over the glorification of Michael Jackson and simply state that this is being overdone, they are suddenly called haters. " How much of this is Michael Jackson's fault? One cannot control how others respond to them, much less post mortem.
"Because people are simply pointing out facts that he had done some stuff that was way out of line, they are considered haters." In all honesty, what do you hope to gain by pointing out one man's (obvious) faults?
You have four different arguments going on, none of which are coherent. I've said it before to you, Ben, but how would Jesus approach this situation?
The church does no better by making Michael a Christian, simply because he was something big. Most of the songs yesterday were all Christian based but yet it downgrades the message of salvation. I can't judge his heart only God can but lets as a church not say "he is in heaven" when we really don't know.
Well from your point of view Jesus would approach it in grace, I agree that Michael is loved the same way as anyone else but I, and many others, are also tired of being accused of hatred simply because you say, "why are we glorifying a man that has had such a shady life?" We certainly would not do the same for a murderer and I am sure most of the people here would not have let their child sleep over at MJ's house if he were still alive. They are relevant points of view that get overlooked because we want to sentimentalize the whole situation. Boy, we are both straightforward with each other but I appreciate your views. =)
And you used "haters" in your facebook post from what I was referring to, not your title of the blog. Just an addendum.
Good conversation Justin, you do challenge me.
The American culture says, "Get on with it. He's dead. Life must go on."
The Christian culture says, "We shouldn't worship anyone but God."
So when we see what looks like a sustained dwelling on one's death as well as a perceived idolization of a man (in this case MJ), everyone cultural button in our body is pushed.
Contrast this with what we see in the pages of Scripture. Look at the death of Lazarus even. Jesus comes upon the scene where there is literal weeping and gnashing of teeth over a man–a flesh-and-blood man. Women were wearing black. Dust was being thrown on heads. Everyone was crying. And it lasted for days. Even Jesus joined in the ritual. Jesus wept.
Lazarus was not a king (at least, not from what we can tell). Lazarus was just a regular dude, but his culture–Jesus' culture–said that this was how you mourned for someone who meant a lot to you.
To put it in context, MJ's memorial service would have been a warm-up for the people of Jesus' day! Regardless of how you may feel about him personally (what I feel you wrongly classify as "the truth"), his life and his music meant the world to a large amount of people. Because of that, they are going to respond to his death out of that connection. It is unconscionable to pass judgment on how people respond to his death because it offends your cultural sensibilities.
My point is this: You (the imperial 'you') do not have a monopoly on the truth. In this instance, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to react to MJ's death. Simply because it does not line up with how you or I might respond does not make it wrong. Just different.
The American culture says, "Get on with it. He's dead. Life must go on."
The Christian culture says, "We shouldn't worship anyone but God."
So when we see what looks like a sustained dwelling on one's death as well as a perceived idolization of a man (in this case MJ), every cultural button in our body is pushed.
Contrast this with what we see in the pages of Scripture. Look at the death of Lazarus even. Jesus comes upon the scene where there is literal weeping and gnashing of teeth over a man–a flesh-and-blood man. Women were wearing black. Dust was being thrown on heads. Everyone was crying. And it lasted for days. Even Jesus joined in the ritual. Jesus wept.
Lazarus was not a king (at least, not from what we can tell). Lazarus was just a regular dude, but his culture–Jesus' culture–said that this was how you mourned for someone who meant a lot to you.
To put it in context, MJ's memorial service would have been a warm-up for the people of Jesus' day! Regardless of how you may feel about him personally (what I feel you wrongly classify as "the truth"), his life and his music meant the world to a large amount of people. Because of that, they are going to respond to his death out of that connection. It is unconscionable to pass judgment on how people respond to his death because it offends your cultural sensibilities.
My point is this: You (the imperial 'you') do not have a monopoly on the truth. In this instance, there is no "right" or "wrong" way to react to MJ's death. Simply because it does not line up with how you or I might respond does not make it wrong. Just different.
- The people "idolizing" him now were probably his biggest fans, and are dealing with death the way any of us would...
- The people overly concerned with MJ being idolized aren't real broken up over his death, but perhaps feel as though they should, so they cast stones at his idolizing fans to remove attention from themselves...
- The people who are "hating" on MJ now are simply distancing themselves from what is nothing less than a very painful event for a lot of people, or are dealing with death differently than most people...
- The people who are lifting MJ up as a good person are probably doing so in response to such vicious accusations...
I just see this cyclical discussion that is totally fruitless.
Yes, he was human, just like us. Ergo, he made some mistakes. Due to his world-wide fame, his mistakes were grossly publicized. Get over it.
Yes, he was a revolutionary, and a legend in the field of music. Due to his death, he will likely be over publicized for a long time to come. Get over it.
“It isn't about stone throwing or judging, it is simply stating facts about who he was” – I don’t know about you, but I’ve seen some boulders. And how can you mention the media persuading thoughts and then claim to state facts. Were you there?
“Does that mean because he died, due to a likely drug overdose, that we turn a blind eye to it?” – If you have a drug problem, take this as a sign to go and seek help. If you don’t have a drug problem, turn a blind eye.
“This bothers me and should bother everyone because we end up getting fed half-truths in order to swallow what we sentimentally want to accept.” – I don’t think anyone is unaware that a possibly drug overdose is in question. And it makes me proud to see that certain people aren’t swayed in their feelings of grief because of it. Who am I to judge? Isn’t it a good thing to want to see the GOOD in someone else?
“vicious accusations that are simply reporting truth is ridiculous and in turn people who are speaking truth are being called racist” – What?!?!
I have been enjoying MJ’s eulogy. I am happy to be participating, on some level, during this time in history. It is one of those special moments that the world unites in memory. No matter what views you have, this (on some level) is a bond of humanity.
maybe it has to do with the length of the comment...
so let's see if this goes through when I hit submit
I feel sadness for him because I think his life was very much not his own. As for the "fall," well, we're all human. I don't say that to condone or condemn. It is a fact that something happened, but we're probably never going to know just exactly what it was.
I have no hate for MJ. But I'm a bit alarmed about people wailing in the streets and the woman who was interviewed saying she hadn't stopped crying (this was 6 days later). I think that kind of grief for a public figure one only "knew" through the radio or TV is rather absurd. It also bothers me that the city of LA and it's resources were so heavily burdened in a time when most city governments can't take too many more straws to the camel's back.
Michael Jackson, rest in peace...a peace the world did not give you.