BeDeviant.com | Culture, Faith & Technology - Latest Comments in Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

bobbyknight — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:31:18 -0000

But is a pastor a 'civil servant' or one who is to uphold the truth of the Word of God? If I am a civil servant, then I should just set a fee and marry all who come in the door. If I am a pastor then I should have some Biblical reference for what I do and why.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

ytakposer — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:20:49 -0000

I'd love to see a discussion about the history of the church's take on premarital sex, as well a discussion of the scripture describing sexual expectations and marital rituals and what that means in our modern context.

I also would love to have a discussion about what qualifies someone as "Christian" and "non-Christian," aka, who the rule "no sex" applies to. That's a tough line to draw, and I think it's a dangerous path to tread.

I think the post and ensuing comments might have strayed a bit from the original question: is "no sex before marriage realistic?" We have to acknowledge that puberty is happening at an earlier age than ever before, and people are getting married at a later age than ever before... so let's say someone doesn't get married till they're 30, but started puberty at 11. That's 19 years of no "sex" (however you define it) in a culture where sex is prevalent and urges are encouraged (or shamed into secrecy or not addressed, leading to ignorance of sex and its implications).

I'd really love to see our whole culture healthily embrace sexuality--to talk about it, talk about the consequences of it, talk about that sex is an act of love and is loaded with lots of emotion and isn't something that should be done lightly with anyone at any whim. It doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not. Certainly, talking about sex & its emotions and in the context of love & spirituality is a bit easier to justify, perhaps, but most churches never even take that road. Rather than talk about sex at all, we just say NONE till you're hitched. I don't know how many of my "good Christian friends" then end up feeling like sex is a terrible thing, something they can't discuss, and I even know of people who struggled in pain when they got married... struggled because their faith never addressed the physical bond two people share when they love one another.

So I'm stuck. I'm not sure sexuality can be simply reduced to a marital contract, something that our legal system has imposed on a spiritual practice. I also don't believe that our churches or our civil society is doing enough to educate people about the effects of sex. If we addressed it for its beauty and love in addition to all the "bad" that can come from it, maybe we'd have healthier families and fewer "social ills" as a result. Or maybe I'm just an optimist. :)

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Mikes Sumondong — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:43:12 -0000

When you said this
UPDATE: This post was written strictly regarding non-Christian couples. It is written under the context of marrying people who do not go to church. Christians, to be sure, need to keep it in their pants.

then i understood.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

ImDavidMiller — Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:08:52 -0000

I've struggled with this myself recently. A new couple who live together started attending our church a few months ago. They are amazing and my wife and I love spending time with them!
Recently the guy expressed interest in volunteering with our student ministry (FYI: I'm the student pastor). Truth be told, he would be an amazing volunteer but I can't reconcile the fact that they are living together. Where is the line? I landed on the fact that he is knowingly living in opposition to scripture so he won't be volunteering. So lame because I have other leaders who struggle with other stuff but they are striving to break the habit or cycle.
All to say, this couple have become great friends. The woman want me to baptize her and they have talked to me about starting premarital counseling.
In your post, you made a distinction between couples in and out of church but I feel the line is even more blurry than that. Most couples who live together are so intertwined that they can't fathom living apart. At times, it doesn't make logical sense for one of them to move out (not that that should matter). This couple bought the house together so that adds another layer of complexity.
To be honest, your post just got my mind trying to unravel this again.
Thanks for this post. It needs to be talked about more openly.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Daniel — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:44:51 -0000

The problem is not whether the church should marry people who have sex before marriage. The problem is the wide spread but erroneous belief that the Bible forbids sex before marriage.

It does not.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

josebernardo — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:39:23 -0000

It is better to prevent than to treat. I understand your thinking but still think that the fault of the church during those previous years is worst. The bad done, have to treat. And the others? will us wait them to engage in pre-marital sex to then have to treat again, and again, and again. Your insight came with a switch from a general perspective to a specific one. What you see if you step back and see from the general again? What you see if you think of you as a minister of God to the people (society) not for individuals?

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

kenhiveley — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:24:59 -0000

It is true that marriage is the only prelapsarian (before the fall) sacrament. The natural law was already present, Jesus elevated this aspect of the natural because of its inherent goodness and beauty and made it the sacrament it is today. The Catholic Church does not make up sacraments but respects and abides in the teachings of Christ. What God makes man cannot dissolve.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

New Lutheran — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:01:37 -0000

I agree with everything you just said. :)

Adam and Eve were married by God, with no interference or help from anyone else.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Len Mason — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:53:23 -0000

It's a very real expectation. But that is not what the article is about. It is about whether or not to marry a non-Christian couple that is sleeping together. If that is the real question, then there are bigger issues than whether they sleep together or not. A marriage without Christ in the center, for instance, would be my concern.

But that in no way means that we shouldn't EXPECT couples to abstain until marriage.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

kenhiveley — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:20:22 -0000

The Catholic Church holds that marriage was the first sacrament as Adam and Eve were married by God in Genesis with: “And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it.” —Genesis 1:27-28

“Have you not read, that he who made man from the beginning, made them male and female? And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.” —Matthew 19:4-5

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

kenhiveley — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:09:03 -0000

Allowing for couple to cohabitate or be engaged in premarital sex prior to marriage is only living a Christ centered life superficially. Just because they feel that they are living a Christ centered life does not mean that Christ is apart of it. Pleasure and the good are not always the same. The meaning of sex is to create a bond between the couple and also strengthen their commitment to God as well as being open to the possibility of children. To deny any one part of this is to be living in sin.
We live in a broken world and part of the responsibility of any pastor is to help his church to be open to Grace and to live the best life possible. For you to allow for cohabitation or premarital sex is to deny them a better life and one that is not centered in Christ. I am not saying that you turn them away; however, it is your responsibilty to do what you know to be virtuous and to steer them to Christ. You can speak the truth, but do it lovingly. Make them realize how very important chastity is both inside and outside of marriage. To not do so, is to lead them further away from the truth and could cause you "to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around your neck." If they are ignorant of the truth, then it is your job to bring them to that truth. If they are obstinate against truth, then they are already not living a life that is Christ centered.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Michael — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 12:31:04 -0000

In a post-Christendom situation (where not everyone is a Christian), why do we continue to bless drive-thru marriages? It seems more like a form of nationalism (gotta keep society running!) than any real thick practice of evangelism, love, or social justice. The creepy government documents only reinforce that impression. Is the minister representing God or the state? Well, who has a bigger interest in marrying non-Christians? The People of God? Or society in general? I strongly suspect the latter, especially in North America.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

watchout — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:03:16 -0000

the sad truth is, though, that most people are not as committed as you and your wife are. that's why divorce is so outrageously high. so while this may have worked for you guys, it's probably not a great idea to spread around....we have enough trouble keeping MARRIED couples together, let alone "spiritually married" ones, get what i mean?

you are right, drinking is not a bad thing in and of itself. but if you are drinking with a friend who doesnt understand the difference between drinking and drunkenness, or can't seem to control him/her self, then i would say it is sinful to continue supporting, participating in, or allowing that friend to drink in your presence.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Nicole — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:16:54 -0000

Why are we so concerned about sex? Sex in the bible is pretty crazy stuff. However, the message of working for justice, feeding the hungry, and looking out for those who are vulnerable is a very clear theme throughout. Let's stop freaking out about sex and feed the hungry. Then they we will know we are Christians by are love for our neighbor not by our sexual behavior.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

New Lutheran — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:29:08 -0000

watchout: I sense the pain and hurt you've been through as I read your comments on this post. I'm truly sorry that you've been through such trials in your relationships.

You make a couple of assumptions here that disturb me. You talk of twisting the scripture into a self-serving interpretation and then in the same breath you say you can't be married before the altar. This, in and of itself, is a twisting of scripture into a self-serving interpretation. Society has developed an affinity for nice church weddings, and many have twisted scripture to make people believe that this is how God defines a wedding. I beg of you to seek out the truth from scriptures yourself. I see no requirement of a church or a pastor when it comes to the God-given gift of marriage between a man and a woman.

You talk of cohabitation as "bending God's command". I'm not sure what command you're referring to. If you're claiming that there's a command that a man and woman to be married by a pastor in a church building, and that they shouldn't live together before this event takes place, then I see this, too, as a twist of scripture to meet an agenda.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

New Lutheran — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:18:29 -0000

The fact that we went to such lengths only proves that we knew our parents wouldn't see it as the right thing to do. Our friends all knew. We weren't hiding from our parents out of shame, we were hiding because we didn't feel like fighting our parents on the issue. It's the same reason I now don't mention alcohol around my mom. It's not because I feel shame over having an occasional beer. It's because I don't feel that arguing with her over it has any value.

The biblical stumbling block concept is a tricky one to me. Even things that aren't sin, if misinterpreted, can potentially cause someone else to sin. Humor me and let me use alcohol as an example again. I had a Christian roommate in college who decided that he was never drinking even a single beer again and that we should all swear it off as well. His reasoning? He had another Christian friend who overindulged and got drunk often who claimed "other Christians drink so why shouldn't I?" The friend confused our occasional consumption of alcohol (not a sin) with drunkenness (clearly a sin).

My wife and I said our "I dos" years before a pastor ever "married" us. The pastor's actions had nothing to do with our marriage. If anyone argues that point, I would say that they misunderstand the Biblical gift of marriage and are putting far too much authority in the hands of the church.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

watchout — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:05:54 -0000

SUSAN: this is very dangerous thinking.
first, being spiritually married is not a real term. the only way to be married is to be married - anything short of that is not married, period. and as someone who was hurt twice by guys who i thought i was all but married to, i definitely know the reprocussions of this thinking.

second, if you hadn't lived together, perhaps the "hanky panky" wouldn't have happened?

third, to twist scripture into a self-serving interpretation is also dangerous and damaging should you pass along these false views to immature christians or non-belivers. there is not a way to be married before the alter. to believe so is just a way to justify premarital sex.

fourth - what fun is it to get married and come back to the EXACT SAME LIFE you had? half the excitement of getting married is moving in together!

fifth - should we ignore all God's commands that are not convenient? it may be conveneient to live together for monetary reasons, etc., but lets call a spade a spade....bending God's command is not ok.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

watchout — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:55:29 -0000

The fact that you had to go to such lengths to explain yourself, and to hide your living together, proves you konw it wasn't the right thing to do. Every couple that lives together has a story like yours, so your circumstance is not different or special. It is a choice you made, period.

Consider this: what if your actions cause another to stumble? what if your living together before marriage (and implied sex before marriage because let's get real, even if it is not happening people are assuming it is) causes another to fall away from God's command? He or she may think it is ok to have premarital sex. Or that Christians are hypocritical. Or a million other conclusions.

Instead of quoting Luther, let's quote the bible, which does, in fact, tell us NOT to do things that cause others to stumble or fall away from God. So even if you are "sure" you are marrying someone, that to me is not reason enough to live with them. (By the way, i "knew" i was going to marry two other men before my husband. I'm glad your situation worked out, but until the "i dos" are said, nothing is certain.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Jesse Phillips — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:38:41 -0000

Sorry, I disagree - I think that's against scripture. Not saying you have to do it thru the state or anything, but God talks about committing to each other for life before having sex. And if you do have sex, then you have to marry them (old testament law, but still).

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Jesse Phillips — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:33:44 -0000

I agree! Brother Jay, I think you missed the point of the post - not talking about Christians.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Jesse Phillips — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:32:12 -0000

Christina, I love you, but I disagree! =) Who gets married in the courts!? Seriously? The notion of how you get married in the US is in a church or at least by a pastor - whether you're Christian or not, that's the tradition. Furthermore, a limited number of people are licensed to certify marriage certificates - those are probably 90% pastors.

So, I'm sorry Christina, but your argument doesn't make sense to me - nor is it a very honest interpretation reality - i love you.

I like your second paragraph - but do you really think some random guy that you've asked to do your wedding will have the relational equity in your life to tell you a hard truth like that? I think probably not, and like Justin says, they'll be turned-off to church for a long time, sadly =(

When people come to get a civil service performed, they're basically completing a government transaction, they're not asking for your opinion.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Brad Ruggles — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:58:53 -0000

Whoo hoo! That's a hot topic if ever I've seen one. No wonder you have over 100 comments on this. I'll have to bookmark this to read all of them later on.

I definitely understand the heart of what you're saying. We so often place outward actions above heart issues. The Pharisees were more concerned about making sure people looked good on the outside whereas Jesus was more concerned about their heart. The simple fact was that the woman who washed Jesus feet was closer to him than any of the religious leaders in the room.

There's a fine line between excusing sin and embracing the sinner. It's not our job to judge people. We're only called to proclaim truth and love. I have a feeling far too many people have been ruined for life because a church was more concerned about whether they were having sex before marriage instead of loving the person and letting God do the convicting.

Great post dude! Love the discussion.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Nate Beaird — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:14:31 -0000

Do we change what is right to appeal to someone just so they wont be mad at us? If we serve a God of Truth, can't we let His word speak for itself? The world is full of lost people who don't know what to believe- The Church HAS to stand on the word of God, and do so in love.

But pointing out what our foundations of faith are is not hatred.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Dave Sandell — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:25:46 -0000

One more. Last year I was at a retreat for Kenyan pastors. There was a tricky situation they were asking for help with. A man with three wives started coming to their church. He was a great leader, and had completely turned his life over to Jesus, post-three marriages. There were two separate questions: Do we need to ask him to leave the church, and if not, is it okay to use him as a leader, given his heart, charisma and gifts. After much (MUCH) debate, one wise, almost zen-like voice rose above the fray: Do you accept his tithe checks? Perhaps that's a sentence we could consider here too.

Re: Is ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ a Realistic Expectation?

Dave Sandell — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:23:11 -0000

I'm chiming in late (the joys of getting ready for vacation) but I think a couple who has gone through a decent premarital course is in much better shape for the rest of their lives than a couple who hasn't. I look at the ceremony as leverage to get a couple through premarital, so they can have a fighting chance in our divorce-happy society. Perhaps that's a twisted version of a Jesus-reality, but if the church's goal is to create solid marriages, I think we have to reconsider what the #1 priority here is.