right on. this is a great idea and a great use of technology. it takes humility and guts too. the "power shift" aspect is HUGE i think
Doug Pagitt seems to utilize this idea at Solomon's Porch, but more within the community. they meet on Mon. to discuss the scripture for the next sun. sermon, talk about it, decide together what the most important aspect for their community is, and then doug does some more work on it. (that's my understanding based on his book, "Church re-imagined")
I've never taken part in your community, in person or webcast, but i'll try to check it out this week
Chad
· 4 months ago
I really like the idea. I REALLY do. :) In fact when you tweeted about this earlier, I sat here at my desk at work for awhile trying to come up with something to connect to the Scripture you will be preaching on, but I just couldn't think of anything! I hope this goes well for you, cause it seems really awesome. :)
Chad
Brad Ruggles
· 4 months ago
Love this idea. I missed the Leadership Summit this year (bummer) but I'm glad to glean little nuggets like this from those of you who made it there.
I'm very much in favor of cultivating a discussion instead of a monologue in the church.
Great post! Thanks for sharing.
Casper
· 4 months ago
If church was about you, as either a leader or a member, then sure this idea's great but it's not, it's about God and worship of him. The whole thing went wrong at "We need a lot more business models and innovations in church". We don't NEED it. Those models for sure are helpful and facilitate organising our communities in new ways but what we need the most in the Church is people that lead with a understanding of who God is which involves preaching and scripture. All this 'innovation' talk is actually people trying to distract from getting down and understanding the message better and thus taking themselves and their churches out of centre-stage and putting the glory back on Christ. Sure Q&A and discussion is helpful but it shouldn't come at the cost of preaching. I don't see why all of a sudden a constant of how God speaks to his people throughout the Bible should be diluted into a entertainment/engagement driven dialogue.
JustinWise
· 4 months ago
Casper
When you say, "Q&A and discussion is helpful but it shouldn't come at the cost of preaching," How would you define "Q&A and discussion" and "preaching"? How are those similar/dissimilar in your opinion?
Casper
· 4 months ago
Preaching as I see it patterned in the Bible is where God speaks to people directly and they then stand and declare what he has said. Preaching is monologue, God to us. Q&A & Discussion is dialogue, us to us. There's totally a place for dialogue totally, just not at the cost of preaching.
Think of each of the Bible characters that God tasks with taking his message to his people and there's never a committee before hand. Preaching is prophecy, bringing the word of the Lord to people and it's not something you leave open to conjecture. A friend of mine recently summed it up well "it is not humble to leave ambiguous what God has made clear, and to make clear what God has made ambiguous".
What I see with much of the 'open source sermons' is a dissolution of the authority of the pulpit and the democratization of the message, which is going to lead to it not being of God and rather of man eventually. I don't deny preachers are no more than mere men and need to seek wisdom and advice from those they believe are qualified to do so but when the entire congregation can weigh in on what comes from the pulpit it 'opens' up the pulpit to being the mouthpiece of man not of God.
Justin Wise
· 4 months ago
I see where you're coming from. I also see a potential problem in your reasoning. Do you object to the use of commentaries? Bible dictionaries? Sermon illustrations that come from popular culture? By your reasoning, these preaching aides should be looked at as dissolving the authority of the pulpit. Why? Because using these resources "decentralizes" the message.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
Furthermore, if preaching is prophetic (which I believe that it is), does one simply sit in a room, locked behind a door, waiting for the word to come? Or does that word come out of wrestling, writing, pruning and seeking the counsel of others?
Casper
· 4 months ago
Did I ever say anything you just suggested? "I see where you're coming from" -I don't think you do.
Yes preachers are not lone rangers. Yes they do need counsel. Yes they need to study their bibles with the guidance of other wiser leaders (teachers, commentary authors, etc). Yes they do need to have their finger on the pulse of their church through being a part of the lives of those they have been given to shepherd. Yes they do need to be using what they learn in relationship with people to speak to their minds and hearts the Gospel that they themselves study and own.
I was critical of a concept where preachers 'open up' their sermons in the preparation phase and in content to a democratic software development philosophy. That's the thing that seems antithetical to preaching.
"Attenders eagerly anticipate the message, hoping something they’ve shared can add to the word that God has for your congregation." - They're anticipating hearing from themselves and not God.
"Decreased preparation time for the communicator." - Ok after trying this, I think you'll see it increases sermon prep because you need to listen to Tom, Dick & Harry and then either find out how to fit everyone's views in or spend time addressing red herrings.
You're giving people with agendas a bigger reason to hold them because now they'd have a greater opportunity to influence others. When it comes time to listen to the sermon, rather than it being stated with authority since you are now all equals, it's your opinion and that the congregants are encouraged to assert their own opinions at cost of the Truth.
Don't hear that I'm against listening to people. I think it's incredibly important for pastors to be with people, hearing about peoples lives and providing counsel or more pointed teaching and subsequently this aids relevance. Yet I'm very wary of methods that undermine the authority of preaching which is the key method, not ideally but functionally, that God's message reaches people each week.
Casper
· 4 months ago
Preaching as I see it patterned in the Bible is where God speaks to people directly and they then stand and declare what he has said. Preaching is monologue, God to us. Q&A & Discussion is dialogue, us to us. There's totally a place for dialogue totally, just not at the cost of preaching.
Think of each of the Bible characters that God tasks with taking his message to his people and there's never a committee before hand. Preaching is prophecy, bringing the word of the Lord to people and it's not something you leave open to conjecture. A friend of mine recently summed it up well "it is not humble to leave ambiguous what God has made clear, and to make clear what God has made ambiguous".
What I see with much of the 'open source sermons' is a dissolution of the authority of the pulpit and the democratization of the message, which is going to lead to it not being of God and rather of man eventually. I don't deny preachers are no more than mere men and need to seek wisdom and advice from those they believe are qualified to do so but when the entire congregation can weigh in on what comes from the pulpit it 'opens' up the pulpit to being the mouthpiece of man not of God.
Melissa
· 4 months ago
I love the idea - How would you consistenly initiate this? I'm going to cheat and add a couple of verses and give Props to David for dancing in this "sticky" situation! Could you imagine being that passionate?
Dave Sandell
· 4 months ago
That was extraordinarily fun. Looking forward to seeing if my thoughts make it in!
Tobias Stefani
· 4 months ago
Hi Justin,
I found this post through a Catalyst Twitter Message. And I believe that god wants me to contribute to your open source sermon, but I don't like to write long texts, so I recorded a video. http://video.seesmic.com/threads/r1Hjearpou
God bless
Toby
Brice Bohrer
· 2 weeks ago
It sounds great that a church would have less answers and more questions. Just what I am looking for.
(sarcasm)
Justin Wise
· 2 weeks ago
Brice
Be a part of the solution! How would you answer some of the questions posed in this post? Any ideas? Please share!
All Comments
Doug Pagitt seems to utilize this idea at Solomon's Porch, but more within the community. they meet on Mon. to discuss the scripture for the next sun. sermon, talk about it, decide together what the most important aspect for their community is, and then doug does some more work on it. (that's my understanding based on his book, "Church re-imagined")
I've never taken part in your community, in person or webcast, but i'll try to check it out this week
Chad
I'm very much in favor of cultivating a discussion instead of a monologue in the church.
Great post! Thanks for sharing.
When you say, "Q&A and discussion is helpful but it shouldn't come at the cost of preaching," How would you define "Q&A and discussion" and "preaching"? How are those similar/dissimilar in your opinion?
Think of each of the Bible characters that God tasks with taking his message to his people and there's never a committee before hand. Preaching is prophecy, bringing the word of the Lord to people and it's not something you leave open to conjecture. A friend of mine recently summed it up well "it is not humble to leave ambiguous what God has made clear, and to make clear what God has made ambiguous".
What I see with much of the 'open source sermons' is a dissolution of the authority of the pulpit and the democratization of the message, which is going to lead to it not being of God and rather of man eventually. I don't deny preachers are no more than mere men and need to seek wisdom and advice from those they believe are qualified to do so but when the entire congregation can weigh in on what comes from the pulpit it 'opens' up the pulpit to being the mouthpiece of man not of God.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
Furthermore, if preaching is prophetic (which I believe that it is), does one simply sit in a room, locked behind a door, waiting for the word to come? Or does that word come out of wrestling, writing, pruning and seeking the counsel of others?
Yes preachers are not lone rangers. Yes they do need counsel. Yes they need to study their bibles with the guidance of other wiser leaders (teachers, commentary authors, etc). Yes they do need to have their finger on the pulse of their church through being a part of the lives of those they have been given to shepherd. Yes they do need to be using what they learn in relationship with people to speak to their minds and hearts the Gospel that they themselves study and own.
I was critical of a concept where preachers 'open up' their sermons in the preparation phase and in content to a democratic software development philosophy. That's the thing that seems antithetical to preaching.
"Attenders eagerly anticipate the message, hoping something they’ve shared can add to the word that God has for your congregation." - They're anticipating hearing from themselves and not God.
"Decreased preparation time for the communicator." - Ok after trying this, I think you'll see it increases sermon prep because you need to listen to Tom, Dick & Harry and then either find out how to fit everyone's views in or spend time addressing red herrings.
You're giving people with agendas a bigger reason to hold them because now they'd have a greater opportunity to influence others. When it comes time to listen to the sermon, rather than it being stated with authority since you are now all equals, it's your opinion and that the congregants are encouraged to assert their own opinions at cost of the Truth.
Don't hear that I'm against listening to people. I think it's incredibly important for pastors to be with people, hearing about peoples lives and providing counsel or more pointed teaching and subsequently this aids relevance. Yet I'm very wary of methods that undermine the authority of preaching which is the key method, not ideally but functionally, that God's message reaches people each week.
Think of each of the Bible characters that God tasks with taking his message to his people and there's never a committee before hand. Preaching is prophecy, bringing the word of the Lord to people and it's not something you leave open to conjecture. A friend of mine recently summed it up well "it is not humble to leave ambiguous what God has made clear, and to make clear what God has made ambiguous".
What I see with much of the 'open source sermons' is a dissolution of the authority of the pulpit and the democratization of the message, which is going to lead to it not being of God and rather of man eventually. I don't deny preachers are no more than mere men and need to seek wisdom and advice from those they believe are qualified to do so but when the entire congregation can weigh in on what comes from the pulpit it 'opens' up the pulpit to being the mouthpiece of man not of God.
I found this post through a Catalyst Twitter Message. And I believe that god wants me to contribute to your open source sermon, but I don't like to write long texts, so I recorded a video. http://video.seesmic.com/threads/r1Hjearpou
God bless
Toby
(sarcasm)
Be a part of the solution! How would you answer some of the questions posed in this post? Any ideas? Please share!