The church doesn't need more money. The church needs more hands.
I don't think Jesus or Paul ever said anything about how money would solve an issue either. Instead, they were living demonstrations of what the hands of God could do for anyone in need. And how the Lord glorified them so they could give it all back.
As a church, we're all still convinced that money is the most important, or only, part of missions. Sure, we need money to get from point A to B. But there's more to mission work, a part that actually would take a church and glorify it (so it in return gets to glorify the Lord) in ways unimaginable if people would stop and learn about those who they help, learn about individual needs, learn about working outside of one's self and leaving the earthly world behind.
- Danny Heggen *I'd love to chat more about this sometime with you.
Justin Wise
· 7 months ago
Thanks for your thoughts...
I hear where you're coming from. I would agree with you that Jesus and Paul never spoke about how money would ever solve an issue. I would also point out that Jesus speaks more about money in the NT than he does prayer. That should tell us something.
I noticed you mentioned something about "leaving the earthly world behind" with a covert reference to money... Am I reading you correctly? If so, what exactly do you mean by that?
Is money "earthly" in the sense that it is not "heavenly"?
Tracy Robson
· 7 months ago
Justin,
Danny's totally right. It's possible to do big things with very little money. I'm part of it right now.
But it's less about financial resources and more about a change in mindset. This world does have us convinced that we need money, but it's totally wrong. The world used to work on a barter system, and I think everyone had what they needed and got along just fine. You can't just throw money at people--it really works much better if you just look them in the eye, get to know them, treat them like a real person, and realize that we're all part of God's body.
And so, I'm going to be honest, sometimes I think that we are supposed to be poor. I didn't see Jesus generating a lot of income for Himself--come to think of it, didn't He just survive off of the kindness of strangers who actually got to know Him and cared about Him?
Just a thought.
Tracy
*I'll join you two's discussion.
Justin Wise
· 7 months ago
Amen. You can do HUGE things without money! Just look at Peter in Acts, "Silver and gold I do not have, but I give to you what I do have: In the name of Jesus Christ I say to you, get up and walk!"
Not a dime (or shekel) changed hands and a leper got his legs back. Amen!
I hope I haven't painted the picture that you can't do big things without money. What I am saying is that I don't think it's an either/or: Either you have money or you don't. I believe that Scripture teaches that we HAVE money, now what are we going to do with it?
Remember, Jesus commends the shrewd manager in the Gospels because of his financial intelligence. In fact, he tells us to go and do likewise. I mention this because, like you point out, in a perfect world we wouldn't need money. Everyone would share and share alike. But we don't live in a perfect world. So we need to be wise as serpents yet gentle as doves.
My whole point in writing this is that there are a lot of people who love Jesus and are really, really good at making money. The Church tells them that this is somehow wrong when it could be the very thing God is bringing into a community to bless it. So these "money-makers" go elsewhere and make money for someone/something else. That's unfaithful, in my opinion.
Remember, most of Paul's missionary journey throughout Acts was funded by a few very wealthy Christian women. In keeping with your argument, do you think Paul would have been able to do what he did had those women not given him what they gave?
Money is morally neutral.
Dave Sandell
· 7 months ago
Certainly there's tons of need for hands and feet to do tons of things. But I'm with Justin. Sometimes we can use our hands and feet to generate income which allows us to do lots of cool stuff to bring Heaven to Earth. In our city, there are a lot of people losing their jobs, needing rent payments, gas payments, etc. My hands and feet can only do so much for them. Heck, I sometimes wish our staff could get paid a little more.
And this microfinance stuff? All the relief work being done after natural disasters? All of that is bonafide. And all of it costs money. We need soup kitchens & extra beds for the night, but we also need long-term relief in the way of housing policy, family law and education policy. We need affordable medical care and business skills training. We need counselors who are subsidized so that people can do marriage counseling without going broke.
That stuff costs money. To theologize our way into poverty isn't doing anyone any good. No one is saying "Money is the answer to everything". We are saying "Money might be one means to accomplishing God's work." I believe some of us are called be good stewards of what God has for us, rather than broke people with good intentions.
Danny Heggen
· 7 months ago
Hey Dave,
Please explain to me who Jesus healed, fed, visited, taught, opened the hearts of, clothed, and did lunch with. To suggest that theologizing our way into poverty isn't doing anyone any good, is to suggest we can solve an issue without actually experiencing it, that we can feed someone who is hungry or clothe someone who is naked through prayer alone and not being the hands that serve.
I know we are off the topic now from the original topic of Justin's blog. So I don't want to digress any further.
In order to create the ideal world described (one with affordable medical, etc.), there needs to be a faith in God that what is needed will be provided. Would you still do your work for free? Why wait to get paid when you can respond immediately with what you've already been given?
As for being "broke with good intentions": I've been incredibly blessed by the Lord: I'm a two-time published author, have traveled the world, graduated with honors, am surrounded by a loving community, volunteer 80 hours a month, and am in the midst of starting a ministry on my own block by simply feeding breakfast to hungry children waiting in a welfare line. By the way, I'm 23 and work 6 hours a week. And I struggle to get by with money. But I love the Lord, glory to Him for all that He provides. The Lord gives me good intentions.
Danny Heggen
Dan Bryan
· 7 months ago
Churches have always valued money - even those that pride themselves on doing much with little. After all, how many sermons, speeches, support letters have been sent to those who have money asking for some? So, to me it is interesting when faced with the prospect of generating its own revenue the Church often cries foul.
Another way I look at this whole thing is how money is this great measuring stick in any culture. It might not always be paper, or coin, but as far back as we can look I'm sure that cultural goods that were worth something were rewarded with money (even if it was two goats, some grain, gold bullion, you get the idea). So, in the examples Justin gave our culture (like every other culture) has rewarded the message and influence of those things and deemed them VALUABLE; after that the money is the easy part.
The donor model for fueling causes, ministries, churches relies on the value of other endeavors for funding. This has its place. But what if the church stepped back, realized it's location within culture, and decided to make some (to borrow from Andy Crouch)? Part of what it means to exist in the kingdom and this earth is to be involved and to contribute - why not walk with and fund entrepreneurs as they create products and services that your community needs? Why not produce cultural goods that affected the whole of culture not just one sub-culture? And further, because you're making good stuff why not make money from it, using it to employ people, promote the good, and fund ministry?
We're nailing it when it comes to offering spiritual commodities - but what does the measuring stick say? Our are neighbors viewing that as valuable? At the risk of being the target for massive rock throwing - has the market rewarded us? This doesn't compromise the kingdom aim of the Church at all. I think this might be the new wave of mission.
What if the best _______ (you fill in the blank business ideas) promoted love, justice, other-centeredness (kingdom ideals), came from the Church and its relationships with it's surrounding communities - and also made money? Churches might not have to ask for it as often and free those in their ranks to sew their resource in their personal relationships as well. If the Church "went to work" so to speak it might be the gift that keeps on giving.
I hope this doesn't get me kicked off BeDeviant, but I think that would kick ass.
Dan Bryan
· 7 months ago
Eh, sorry for the typos - haste makes, well you know.
Danny Heggen
· 7 months ago
Hey Dan,
You make a really good point about what shouldn't be compromised despite the "measuring stick": the kingdom.
If you're interested in getting involved with anything dealing with poverty in Des Moines, get ahold of me @ danny.heggen@gmail.com. Or, send something to Tracy (who commented above also) @ tracy.robson@gmail.com. We're both working with the homeless day in and day out, learning about practicing the things that aren't being compromised in our current (broke) situations: love for others when it's all we have to offer.
Danny
Dan Bryan
· 7 months ago
Danny,
Thanks for the feedback. You and I agree about not compromising, but I also think you've missed me slightly. I think there's a place for both of things we're talking about. I read through some of your other comments, sounds like you're up to some awesome stuff - keep it up. I can't go with you to the place that says we all need to approach it exactly as you have - don't want to debate that here (you can follow my link to reach me). And sorry bro, I don't live in Iowa - or I'd love to look you up.
Dan
Guy
· 7 months ago
I like those thoughts and I here what Justin is saying and I say YES good vision...but to take a different line...I'm far more interested in the "how" these days. So many visions of what the church could be and so few fulfillments on the visions. Its like we have an abundance of visionaries and few skillful builders. Maybe the builders are in the marketplace making money.
God at play
· 7 months ago
I can see both sides and understand what you guys are saying, especially since I know 3 of the 4 of you personally. :P
I think God has given us each a heart that beats for different aspects of his kingdom. We need people like Danny and Tracy who just want to get things done and who are ok with being poor. In many ways, I see myself the same way. But Danny and Tracy, we also need people like Justin who see wealthy people around them in the community and who encourage those people to support the church and get involved with the church to help it grow financially. To put it crudely, those people are like money hoses, so they might as well be pointing their hoses at the church, heh.
But by only having one of the roles, there is no body, only a body part.
With that said, there is a lot of work to be done in teaching people how to do good deeds for the kingdom. So many people, especially the wealthier middle class, don't want to leave their comforts and miss out on great things that are happening around them. Many of them need to strike a better balance of missions and economy.
The way I see it, it goes both ways, not just one way.
Danny Heggen
· 7 months ago
Sorry to post such an opposite-extreme post on my first time through. What I really wanted to create was a discussion that would take us to "God at Play's" response. We do need hands and feet. And a brain and the monetary side. It all does work together in the body.
But we have to remember it's not just throwing ideas out that develop the way we interact with culture. We need people who are willing to take (for example here) what money is being used in our home towns, and use it creatively and positively. We need to think about the why and how in every case. "Why is this for God?" and "How can we glorify God?"
In response to Jesus talking about money the most: everyone uses money, and it's a constant concern, for exchange is dependent upon some form of currency. He knew how important it was. He also knew how insignificant it was, thus his treatment of it does not drive him - he even used a fish's mouth to store it. However, it's only ever going to buy us "earthly" things. We won't be taking anything with us when we go. So why have more than we need?
Anonymous
· 7 months ago
I think it's more to do with the condition of the heart when it comes to making money and also you’re calling that God has for your life. There's the example of the man coming up to Jesus and asking how he could follow him and Jesus basically said give all your wealth away and come follow me. The man wept because he didn't want to give it away. Obviously there was an issue with the condition of that man's heart and his relationship with Jesus. Or the parable of the man who produced fine crops and ran out of room so decided to build big barns to store up his fine goods so he could "relax" and not "worry." But God replied "You fool! You will die this very night. Then who will get everything you worked for?"The man of that story also had an issue with his heart because he was “worrying” about his next meal or and whether the Lord would provide for him if he had given some away.
Luke 12: 21 Yes, a person is a fool to store up earthly wealth but not have a rich relationship with God.
Anonymous
· 7 months ago
Then there’s a person like David in the bible, who once was a lowly Shepard that became a RICH King and who might I add, was very obedient to Christ, listened to God and had a relationship with him. His riches were then passed down to Solomon who then built temples and what not.....that was Christ’s calling he had for that family. Now Jesus was poor because I believe that God wanted him to be stripped away from every earthly thing. Psychological wise people think good things about a person who is rich and good-looking and are therefore more "accepting" of a person. Which scriptures leads us to believe that Jesus maybe have not been the hottie across the street or the foxy carpenter. Jesus wanted to be accepted by who he was in God and wanted to reach people by love.
Anonymous
· 7 months ago
So either way if your poor or rich everyone should give accordingly to what God asks of them and then let him do the rest. The MOST important thing if you are poor or rich is what your relationship is like with God. Some people are blessed with money and some aren't. With that being said I believe a person who is rich should live "simply." Simplicity is key. Because who knows when the Lord might ask a person to give it all away? Or what if he says, sell all your possessions because I’m going to take to you to Africa.Which people should want too if that is what the Lord asks. Don’t live above means. Luke 12:47-48 "And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. But someone who doesn't know, and then does something wrong will only be punished lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return: and when someone is entrusted with much, even more will be required.
He knows EXACTLY what a person needs and will not with hold anything great from any follower. For he cares for us. Rich or poor. We're blessed either way.
jason kramme
· 7 months ago
Danny & Tracy! Hey! I've been keeping up with the effort you two have going. Keep up the good work! You too Justin!
As I have been thinking about this issue, I think that the bottom line lies at your definition of church. The institutional church as an institution located in the world where money gets results needs to find ways to raise money. Gotta pay those taxes, etc. But, if you define church as that unique collection of people united by faith in Christ and called to the ends of the earth, then things are much different. When we define things this way, the problem then becomes how we get the church (people) to be the church outside of the church (institution). Ideally, we would see a whole-sale difference between Christians and non-believers, but we don't. Sin is very real and it makes us very self-centered. In this situation, the institutional church has a lot of value as it mobilizes Christians and directs them to the world. I guess the trick would be to have this mechanism be free.
jason kramme
· 7 months ago
In this case, a real challenge would be to visualize what the "church" would look like under these circumstances. Removing the false distinction between day to day life and church life would be a good place to start.
God at play
· 7 months ago
Ahh I misunderstood then. Glad to see that's where you were headed Danny. Continue on :)
Sam Mahlstadt
· 7 months ago
Lively discussion going on here, great thoughts. Justin, thank you for this series of posts, these are the issues we must reimagine as the church. Money is tricky because the church has a shaky history with stewardship, which is the real issue here. Stewardship is about the heart. Solomon was an awful example of someone using money well, because be built a materialisic and militaristic empire that seperated him from God. But, we have been called to create culture, and show people Jesus. This takes money. Jesus didn't live off the kindness of strangers, he lived off their contributions to his cause. Let's get real, the church should be creating the greatest thinkers and producers in the world. Let's do this thing.
All Comments
The church doesn't need more money. The church needs more hands.
I don't think Jesus or Paul ever said anything about how money would solve an issue either. Instead, they were living demonstrations of what the hands of God could do for anyone in need. And how the Lord glorified them so they could give it all back.
As a church, we're all still convinced that money is the most important, or only, part of missions. Sure, we need money to get from point A to B. But there's more to mission work, a part that actually would take a church and glorify it (so it in return gets to glorify the Lord) in ways unimaginable if people would stop and learn about those who they help, learn about individual needs, learn about working outside of one's self and leaving the earthly world behind.
- Danny Heggen
*I'd love to chat more about this sometime with you.
I hear where you're coming from. I would agree with you that Jesus and Paul never spoke about how money would ever solve an issue. I would also point out that Jesus speaks more about money in the NT than he does prayer. That should tell us something.
I noticed you mentioned something about "leaving the earthly world behind" with a covert reference to money... Am I reading you correctly? If so, what exactly do you mean by that?
Is money "earthly" in the sense that it is not "heavenly"?
Danny's totally right. It's possible to do big things with very little money. I'm part of it right now.
But it's less about financial resources and more about a change in mindset. This world does have us convinced that we need money, but it's totally wrong. The world used to work on a barter system, and I think everyone had what they needed and got along just fine. You can't just throw money at people--it really works much better if you just look them in the eye, get to know them, treat them like a real person, and realize that we're all part of God's body.
And so, I'm going to be honest, sometimes I think that we are supposed to be poor. I didn't see Jesus generating a lot of income for Himself--come to think of it, didn't He just survive off of the kindness of strangers who actually got to know Him and cared about Him?
Just a thought.
Tracy
*I'll join you two's discussion.
Not a dime (or shekel) changed hands and a leper got his legs back. Amen!
I hope I haven't painted the picture that you can't do big things without money. What I am saying is that I don't think it's an either/or: Either you have money or you don't. I believe that Scripture teaches that we HAVE money, now what are we going to do with it?
Remember, Jesus commends the shrewd manager in the Gospels because of his financial intelligence. In fact, he tells us to go and do likewise. I mention this because, like you point out, in a perfect world we wouldn't need money. Everyone would share and share alike. But we don't live in a perfect world. So we need to be wise as serpents yet gentle as doves.
My whole point in writing this is that there are a lot of people who love Jesus and are really, really good at making money. The Church tells them that this is somehow wrong when it could be the very thing God is bringing into a community to bless it. So these "money-makers" go elsewhere and make money for someone/something else. That's unfaithful, in my opinion.
Remember, most of Paul's missionary journey throughout Acts was funded by a few very wealthy Christian women. In keeping with your argument, do you think Paul would have been able to do what he did had those women not given him what they gave?
Money is morally neutral.
And this microfinance stuff? All the relief work being done after natural disasters? All of that is bonafide. And all of it costs money. We need soup kitchens & extra beds for the night, but we also need long-term relief in the way of housing policy, family law and education policy. We need affordable medical care and business skills training. We need counselors who are subsidized so that people can do marriage counseling without going broke.
That stuff costs money. To theologize our way into poverty isn't doing anyone any good. No one is saying "Money is the answer to everything". We are saying "Money might be one means to accomplishing God's work." I believe some of us are called be good stewards of what God has for us, rather than broke people with good intentions.
Please explain to me who Jesus healed, fed, visited, taught, opened the hearts of, clothed, and did lunch with. To suggest that theologizing our way into poverty isn't doing anyone any good, is to suggest we can solve an issue without actually experiencing it, that we can feed someone who is hungry or clothe someone who is naked through prayer alone and not being the hands that serve.
I know we are off the topic now from the original topic of Justin's blog. So I don't want to digress any further.
In order to create the ideal world described (one with affordable medical, etc.), there needs to be a faith in God that what is needed will be provided. Would you still do your work for free? Why wait to get paid when you can respond immediately with what you've already been given?
As for being "broke with good intentions": I've been incredibly blessed by the Lord: I'm a two-time published author, have traveled the world, graduated with honors, am surrounded by a loving community, volunteer 80 hours a month, and am in the midst of starting a ministry on my own block by simply feeding breakfast to hungry children waiting in a welfare line. By the way, I'm 23 and work 6 hours a week. And I struggle to get by with money. But I love the Lord, glory to Him for all that He provides. The Lord gives me good intentions.
Danny Heggen
Another way I look at this whole thing is how money is this great measuring stick in any culture. It might not always be paper, or coin, but as far back as we can look I'm sure that cultural goods that were worth something were rewarded with money (even if it was two goats, some grain, gold bullion, you get the idea). So, in the examples Justin gave our culture (like every other culture) has rewarded the message and influence of those things and deemed them VALUABLE; after that the money is the easy part.
The donor model for fueling causes, ministries, churches relies on the value of other endeavors for funding. This has its place. But what if the church stepped back, realized it's location within culture, and decided to make some (to borrow from Andy Crouch)? Part of what it means to exist in the kingdom and this earth is to be involved and to contribute - why not walk with and fund entrepreneurs as they create products and services that your community needs? Why not produce cultural goods that affected the whole of culture not just one sub-culture? And further, because you're making good stuff why not make money from it, using it to employ people, promote the good, and fund ministry?
We're nailing it when it comes to offering spiritual commodities - but what does the measuring stick say? Our are neighbors viewing that as valuable? At the risk of being the target for massive rock throwing - has the market rewarded us? This doesn't compromise the kingdom aim of the Church at all. I think this might be the new wave of mission.
What if the best _______ (you fill in the blank business ideas) promoted love, justice, other-centeredness (kingdom ideals), came from the Church and its relationships with it's surrounding communities - and also made money? Churches might not have to ask for it as often and free those in their ranks to sew their resource in their personal relationships as well. If the Church "went to work" so to speak it might be the gift that keeps on giving.
I hope this doesn't get me kicked off BeDeviant, but I think that would kick ass.
You make a really good point about what shouldn't be compromised despite the "measuring stick": the kingdom.
If you're interested in getting involved with anything dealing with poverty in Des Moines, get ahold of me @ danny.heggen@gmail.com. Or, send something to Tracy (who commented above also) @ tracy.robson@gmail.com. We're both working with the homeless day in and day out, learning about practicing the things that aren't being compromised in our current (broke) situations: love for others when it's all we have to offer.
Danny
Thanks for the feedback. You and I agree about not compromising, but I also think you've missed me slightly. I think there's a place for both of things we're talking about.
I read through some of your other comments, sounds like you're up to some awesome stuff - keep it up. I can't go with you to the place that says we all need to approach it exactly as you have - don't want to debate that here (you can follow my link to reach me). And sorry bro, I don't live in Iowa - or I'd love to look you up.
Dan
I think God has given us each a heart that beats for different aspects of his kingdom. We need people like Danny and Tracy who just want to get things done and who are ok with being poor. In many ways, I see myself the same way. But Danny and Tracy, we also need people like Justin who see wealthy people around them in the community and who encourage those people to support the church and get involved with the church to help it grow financially. To put it crudely, those people are like money hoses, so they might as well be pointing their hoses at the church, heh.
But by only having one of the roles, there is no body, only a body part.
With that said, there is a lot of work to be done in teaching people how to do good deeds for the kingdom. So many people, especially the wealthier middle class, don't want to leave their comforts and miss out on great things that are happening around them. Many of them need to strike a better balance of missions and economy.
The way I see it, it goes both ways, not just one way.
But we have to remember it's not just throwing ideas out that develop the way we interact with culture. We need people who are willing to take (for example here) what money is being used in our home towns, and use it creatively and positively. We need to think about the why and how in every case. "Why is this for God?" and "How can we glorify God?"
In response to Jesus talking about money the most: everyone uses money, and it's a constant concern, for exchange is dependent upon some form of currency. He knew how important it was. He also knew how insignificant it was, thus his treatment of it does not drive him - he even used a fish's mouth to store it.
However, it's only ever going to buy us "earthly" things. We won't be taking anything with us when we go. So why have more than we need?
There's the example of the man coming up to Jesus and asking how he could follow him and Jesus basically said give all your wealth away and come follow me. The man wept because he didn't want to give it away.
Obviously there was an issue with the condition of that man's heart and his relationship with Jesus.
Or the parable of the man who produced fine crops and ran out of room so decided to build big barns to store up his fine goods so he could "relax" and not "worry."
But God replied "You fool! You will die this very night. Then who will get everything you worked for?"The man of that story also had an issue with his heart because he was “worrying” about his next meal or and whether the Lord would provide for him if he had given some away.
Luke 12: 21 Yes, a person is a fool to store up earthly wealth but not have a rich relationship with God.
Now Jesus was poor because I believe that God wanted him to be stripped away from
every earthly thing. Psychological wise people think good things about a person who is rich and good-looking and are therefore more "accepting" of a person. Which scriptures leads us to believe that Jesus maybe have not been the hottie across the street or the foxy carpenter.
Jesus wanted to be accepted by who he was in God and wanted to reach people by love.
Luke 12:47-48
"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. But someone who doesn't know, and then does something wrong will only be punished lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return: and when someone is entrusted with much, even more will be required.
He knows EXACTLY what a person needs and will not with hold anything great from any follower. For he cares for us. Rich or poor. We're blessed either way.
As I have been thinking about this issue, I think that the bottom line lies at your definition of church. The institutional church as an institution located in the world where money gets results needs to find ways to raise money. Gotta pay those taxes, etc. But, if you define church as that unique collection of people united by faith in Christ and called to the ends of the earth, then things are much different. When we define things this way, the problem then becomes how we get the church (people) to be the church outside of the church (institution). Ideally, we would see a whole-sale difference between Christians and non-believers, but we don't. Sin is very real and it makes us very self-centered. In this situation, the institutional church has a lot of value as it mobilizes Christians and directs them to the world. I guess the trick would be to have this mechanism be free.