I kind of feel like the way this question was posed is insinuating that being a woman is sinful...
Justin Wise
· 4 months ago
Oh no! That certainly was the farthest thing from my intent when posing the question. Sorry if that was confusing. Of course, being a woman is not sinful (my wife would have something to say about that!)
Throughout the history of the church, there has been conflict over whether to ordain women, divorced people, and now openly gay and lesbian people. Does that help clarify?
Susan
· 4 months ago
I know that's not what you meant Justin, but I can see what mishmelle is saying here...at first blush you got women, divorce and gay all rolled into one ball. It's not really that appealing
@mishmelle
· 4 months ago
I was pretty sure that's not what you meant, but it just made me stop for a moment there! It's true that traditionally they all have been pretty much stuck in the same boat, and that's sad. I think they should all be allowed to be ordained as pastors because we all fall short and are sinners.
Ben
· 4 months ago
I believe in ordaining women, so I wouldn't find an issue with that. Divorces bring in a plethora of other issues based on situation, remorse, etc. Being openly gay and acting on it is being in continual sin.
Probably as concise as I can be, so you should be proud of me Justin, haha.
Dave Sandell
· 4 months ago
Just for the sake of argument (and not to say anything about anything I do or don't believe), what about being openly gay and celibate?
yooper1714
· 4 months ago
I knew that argument was going to come up, haha. (this is ben by the way, forgot to sign in). I believe that if you have come to the point where you understand that acting out in homosexuality is a sin but you choose to be celibate, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
It would be difficult for me to state that someone who remains celibate but struggles with lust towards men is no different than a single guy who lusts towards a woman once in awhile, because then it is a heart issue. (Women can be swapped in that statement, not just saying men.)
But if you are openly gay and running around saying it's ok to be gay, well that doesn't make sense to me to be honest.
Susan
· 4 months ago
As a Catholic, as far as I'm concerned, celibate is celibate. So it shouldn't matter if Father is gay or not, since Father's not supposed to have sex with anyone. (Not going to go into the Scandal here because that horse has been beaten enough.)
As a Catholic, I'd be ok with ordaining women, but only if they're celibate. Not any currently married person though, with an exception for Episcopal/Orthodox crossovers - there are some and it's a done deal. The Catholic church has a history of paying for housing, food and sometimes a car for the priests. The Catholic church also has a history of saying make all the babies you can. Since most churches can't afford to pay the bills right now, I don't see how they could pay for Fr. John, his wife and 12 children's expenses as well.
Divorce...that's tricky. If John got a divorce, but no annulment and then got the call to enter the priesthood, I guess I'd be ok with that. Since the party line says that John can't remarry or that would be adultery. And it's not so different from a widower becoming a priest later in life, which does happen.
Of course, this is all from the Catholic perspective...you protestant folks get different rules. :)
@mishmelle
· 4 months ago
That's interesting... I hadn't thought about the "practical" reasoning for celibacy before!
J. LeMaster-Smith
· 4 months ago
Honestly....I get tired of people picking and choosing who to ordain based on their lives...I have no problem ordaining any of the three above mentioned...however we call find scripture and proof text it to make it work in our favor to not ordain any of the above three.
We can also say its a sin to ordain someone who once played football and is unrepentant...because they touched pigskin and are now unclean.
jason_adams
· 4 months ago
As happens every time this issue comes up, it raises more questions than answers.
Would it be okay to ordain a person who is not OPENLY gay? Are we to assume every ordained person who is not married is just a "confirmed bachelor"?
It seems to me that reasons not to ordain someone based on sexual identity are rooted in an interpretation of scripture that not everyone seems to agree upon.
Alex Schroeder
· 4 months ago
We ordain liars, cheaters, haters, gossipers, thieves, bigots, self-righteous, jealous, adulterers, perverts and even murderers. Why would we not ordain gay people and women? Because they are less worthy of the role than every other sinner?
We're all in the same pit together. Let's stop pretending like some of us are more righteous than others.
jason_adams
· 4 months ago
great points Alex - why does one sin exclude someone from ordained ministry and not another?
Mike
· 4 months ago
Mishmelle...are you serious? Way reading to much between the lines. God created male and female...think bout that for second. Noone is challenging that with this question.
Jason
· 4 months ago
Ya know, I'm not so sure that denominational ordination means much of anything to me anymore. Whatever happened to the priesthood of all believers, anyway? Has not the Holy Spirit empowered us for ministry to begin with? And if so, why do we need paid pastors? There. I've been deconstructive enough for today.
Chad
· 4 months ago
Gays committed to celibacy or conversion therapy (their choice) should be able to be ordained.
I think a better/harder question is this: Should the church refuse to marry non-believers as they refuse to marry homosexuals? Lemme know what you think about that (I'm not sure what the biblical stance is, so I'm really just asking for an answer, not a debate haha)....
Chad
Chad
· 4 months ago
Hah, Justin I just noticed that you have a blog post pretty much addressing this a few weeks ago haha...
Mikes
· 4 months ago
No difference. They're both sinners who have been saved by God and who deserve to be accepted and never rejected if they wish to serve GOD>
bradley_jason
· 4 months ago
I think that openly gay men/women should not be ordained as pastors. God intended for marriage to reflect the way our relationship with him is from the very beginning. How can a pastor lead a congregation of followers into relationship with the Lord, if they do not understand how God has ordained our relationships/marriages?
I fully believe though that women and divorced people should be able to be ordained ministers. (so i don't have @mishmelle after me :) )
He has called us into relationship...period.
@mishmelle
· 4 months ago
: ) Looks like I'm coming after you anyways!
Wouldn't your logic prove true for someone who is unmarried (gay or straight), as they have not yet experienced marriage and might not have an understanding of that relationship?
I think it is unfair to say that someone who is gay does not understand how God has ordained our relationships/marriages... They may fully understand that that's the way God intended things to be, but maybe they're just not wired that way.
I love your last statement: "He has called us into relationship... period."
: )
Nate Beaird
· 4 months ago
Please don't take any offense to this, but it doesn't really matter if you think it's unfair or not. The Bible is pretty clear on what marriage is and is not. A same-sex marriage is in direct conflict to what God says what marriage is. So, by that logic...they DO NOT "fully understand the way God intended things to be."
Nate Beaird
· 4 months ago
I'm wondering if you're starting this conversation in anticipation of the ELCA's (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) big vote coming up at the convention (Aug. 17th-21st). This vote would allow gay clergy to be introduced in all the Lutheran churches associated with the ELCA, which would involve HOPE. Comparing Gay and Lesbian clergy to Women and Divorced Clergy, is sort of like apples and oranges, right? I mean God never said that being divorced or a woman is an "ABOMINATION." I know, call me old-fashioned.
So, what's your thoughts on this JWise?
Justin Wise
· 4 months ago
Ask me on August 18th.
Nate Beaird
· 4 months ago
I did you one better...it's the 19th.
So what are your personal thought about the vote and what was voted on this weekend?
Nate Beaird
· 4 months ago
True. No one is perfect. That's why we use the word of God to help us live our lives in Christ. It's our blueprint to live a true life, the best we can. It's not ME deciding a certain person has sinned, or shouldn't be married. God makes it clear in His word. It doesn't matter what we think is fair or not fair. If we are doing our best as Christians to live by His word- then we do our best to obey what it says.
Sam Mahlstadt
· 4 months ago
I think ordaining women is a no-brainer personally. We live in a different social context than that of Paul's "women don't speak in church" where now, it is socially accepted in leadership roles. I think Paul even wrestled with this as he wrote about great leaders who were women. Divorce is also a tricky one, as Jesus had some pretty harsh words for those who were getting divorced just because it was legalized. hmmm. I do believe that those who have gone through a divorce, and who's hearts are right should be able to be ordained. Homosexuals, however, no. I don't see how a homosexual (practicing) can lead a congregation while they are currently living in what the Scripture calls a sin. I know, I know, we all live in sin, and some pastors live in sexual sin (lust, etc.). Do I dare say, "this is different"? Living as a practicing homosexual is to say that it is okay, and God somehow understands, even though he calls it a sin - straight up. This to me, can be equated with me going around and sleeping with whomever as I lead a congregation - it is straight up a sin. Are homosexuals the same as whores, no - but both are sexual sins, and shouldn't be allowed to lead. It's funny to how people say that Jesus never said anything against homosexuals, but in 1st century Israel, this conversation would be unbelievable. I guess we will have some more interesting ones after this gets voted on. I see, Justin, you are not voicing an opinion - is this because the decision has not been made by the denomination or are you just staying out of the way of your own question? :)
Doris
· 4 months ago
It is sad to me that we seem to consider our personal opinions of equal value to Gods Word!! We really must base our standard on Gods truth if we want to call ourselves christian!!
Dennis B.
· 4 months ago
Sam Mahlstadt: please specify the passage(s) where Jesus speaks against homosexuals?
General to all: Question 1: what is the common denominator of the three groups specified?
Question 2: are we CHRISTian, or PAULine?
Question 3: how can homosexuals be considered any less fit to serve, when in the Acts of the Apostles (10:28), Peter specifically says, "God hath shewed me that I should not call ANY man common or unclean." (KJV, emphasis mine)
Sam Mahlstadt
· 4 months ago
Dennis, perhaps I wasn't clear. Jesus does not make any comments on homosexuality. My point, however, is that this conversation of excusing homosexuality, and then allowing homosexuals in church leadership positions would have been absurd. Also, are you backing up your "follow Jesus, not Paul" argument with a statement made by Paul? That seems a little counterintuitive.
Levi Gray
· 2 months ago
Women are not to assume the office of teacher in the church.(1 Cor. 14:34) Women may teach, as long as they do not usurp the place of authority and leadership of men in the church.(1 Timothy 2:12) Older women are specifically entrusted withe teaching younger women.(Titus 2:3-5) The injunction(of 1 Timothy 2:12) is based on the relationship of man and woman in the original creation.
The Bible is clear that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God(1 Corinthians 6:9). If we are told not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian but is sexually immoral, it doesn't make sense to ordain him as a priest.
God also hates divorce, and only sanctions remarriage when the spouse dies. Pastors are to be husbands of one wife(literally translated as "one-wife husband," above reproach, and of good reputation with those outside of the church (1 Timothy 3). Since divorce is prohibited, it is doubtful that a divorcee can be ordained and fulfill these roles.
All Comments
Throughout the history of the church, there has been conflict over whether to ordain women, divorced people, and now openly gay and lesbian people. Does that help clarify?
Divorces bring in a plethora of other issues based on situation, remorse, etc.
Being openly gay and acting on it is being in continual sin.
Probably as concise as I can be, so you should be proud of me Justin, haha.
It would be difficult for me to state that someone who remains celibate but struggles with lust towards men is no different than a single guy who lusts towards a woman once in awhile, because then it is a heart issue. (Women can be swapped in that statement, not just saying men.)
But if you are openly gay and running around saying it's ok to be gay, well that doesn't make sense to me to be honest.
As a Catholic, I'd be ok with ordaining women, but only if they're celibate. Not any currently married person though, with an exception for Episcopal/Orthodox crossovers - there are some and it's a done deal. The Catholic church has a history of paying for housing, food and sometimes a car for the priests. The Catholic church also has a history of saying make all the babies you can. Since most churches can't afford to pay the bills right now, I don't see how they could pay for Fr. John, his wife and 12 children's expenses as well.
Divorce...that's tricky. If John got a divorce, but no annulment and then got the call to enter the priesthood, I guess I'd be ok with that. Since the party line says that John can't remarry or that would be adultery. And it's not so different from a widower becoming a priest later in life, which does happen.
Of course, this is all from the Catholic perspective...you protestant folks get different rules. :)
We can also say its a sin to ordain someone who once played football and is unrepentant...because they touched pigskin and are now unclean.
Would it be okay to ordain a person who is not OPENLY gay? Are we to assume every ordained person who is not married is just a "confirmed bachelor"?
It seems to me that reasons not to ordain someone based on sexual identity are rooted in an interpretation of scripture that not everyone seems to agree upon.
We're all in the same pit together. Let's stop pretending like some of us are more righteous than others.
I think a better/harder question is this:
Should the church refuse to marry non-believers as they refuse to marry homosexuals? Lemme know what you think about that (I'm not sure what the biblical stance is, so I'm really just asking for an answer, not a debate haha)....
Chad
I fully believe though that women and divorced people should be able to be ordained ministers. (so i don't have @mishmelle after me :) )
He has called us into relationship...period.
Wouldn't your logic prove true for someone who is unmarried (gay or straight), as they have not yet experienced marriage and might not have an understanding of that relationship?
I think it is unfair to say that someone who is gay does not understand how God has ordained our relationships/marriages... They may fully understand that that's the way God intended things to be, but maybe they're just not wired that way.
I love your last statement: "He has called us into relationship... period."
: )
So, what's your thoughts on this JWise?
So what are your personal thought about the vote and what was voted on this weekend?
Divorce is also a tricky one, as Jesus had some pretty harsh words for those who were getting divorced just because it was legalized. hmmm. I do believe that those who have gone through a divorce, and who's hearts are right should be able to be ordained.
Homosexuals, however, no. I don't see how a homosexual (practicing) can lead a congregation while they are currently living in what the Scripture calls a sin. I know, I know, we all live in sin, and some pastors live in sexual sin (lust, etc.). Do I dare say, "this is different"?
Living as a practicing homosexual is to say that it is okay, and God somehow understands, even though he calls it a sin - straight up. This to me, can be equated with me going around and sleeping with whomever as I lead a congregation - it is straight up a sin. Are homosexuals the same as whores, no - but both are sexual sins, and shouldn't be allowed to lead.
It's funny to how people say that Jesus never said anything against homosexuals, but in 1st century Israel, this conversation would be unbelievable. I guess we will have some more interesting ones after this gets voted on. I see, Justin, you are not voicing an opinion - is this because the decision has not been made by the denomination or are you just staying out of the way of your own question? :)
General to all:
Question 1: what is the common denominator of the three groups specified?
Question 2: are we CHRISTian, or PAULine?
Question 3: how can homosexuals be considered any less fit to serve, when in the Acts of the Apostles (10:28), Peter specifically says, "God hath shewed me that I should not call ANY man common or unclean." (KJV, emphasis mine)
The Bible is clear that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God(1 Corinthians 6:9). If we are told not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian but is sexually immoral, it doesn't make sense to ordain him as a priest.
God also hates divorce, and only sanctions remarriage when the spouse dies. Pastors are to be husbands of one wife(literally translated as "one-wife husband," above reproach, and of good reputation with those outside of the church (1 Timothy 3). Since divorce is prohibited, it is doubtful that a divorcee can be ordained and fulfill these roles.