DISQUS

J. LeMaster-Smith · 9 months ago

Being a United Methodist I have a few to add...

We know the Doxology, Gloria Patri, Apostles Creed, and Lord's Prayer by heart and that we do not need time to find it in the hymnal.
We know what a hymnal is.
We know what all the little abbreviations about UMW, UMM, SEJ, WNCC, etc.

I try to get my pastor to make changes...but to no avail.

Thanks for this.

Justin Wise · 9 months ago

I've been in church pretty much all my life and I have no idea what UMW, UMM, SEJ, WNCC are :)

Great list.

Dan Bryan · 9 months ago

churches assume:

*the people who came want to sit and be passive and 'receive' something OR there is no time to answer their questions/have a conversation

*if something is talked about in church, church language is all that is required - we don't need to define/discuss things in ways that make sense to our contemporaries in other arenas

*every sermon must have a neat application so that we the people, the 'sheep', know how to continue with our lives

*that the rising generations equate giving our money to church with giving our money to god

*that disclosure anything short of full is ok because the people don't want to be bothered/couldn't handle it

*copying someone else's idea is compelling/kitchy/attractive

just a couple. not meant to be overly negative - but at the heart of a lot of the questions i think churches should be asking.

i believe some sort of church should exist, and ultimately that god is at work and loves the people following now and on their way to following - just struggling with the institutions we've built around that idea.

Justin Wise · 9 months ago

Sheesh, dude. C'mon. This is the REAL blog post... This one in particular hit me right between the eyes: "that the rising generations equate giving our money to church with giving our money to god" Could it be that the younger crowd traditionally doesn't give to the church because they believe it's going to pay for things that this younger generation does not value?

J. LeMaster-Smith · 9 months ago

Definately, I'm not giving my money to go to the organ fund or cemetery fund, when the children's ministry or missions committee has to have bake sales to have a VBS.

Ross_Hesseltine · 9 months ago

We know that they all hang out with each other, and exclude people that don't believe what they believe, but still expect said people to have a loving relationship with God, when they themselves don't show God's love to the people with different beliefs

Ryan C. · 9 months ago

Mmmm, yeah that's true in a sense...but (and I mean to be honest and not pretentious here) have you given time and energy to hang out with them? If I were an alien and came to see all these comments I would "assume" you might be a little bitter based on your tone?

Nick Stumbo · 9 months ago

We assume people want to be there.
We assume people want to "get rid of" their kids to another activity.
We may assume they believe in God, Jesus, or the Bible.
We assume people feel guilt.

Just to name a few...

Justin Wise · 9 months ago

Coming from a senior pastor, this list should speak loudly to all of us!

The guilt one is huge. Or that people, to believe in the Gospel message, must be at "rock bottom" in their lives. Like, they have to be the most unhappy they've ever been in order to love Jesus well.

C'mon Stumbs!

chris · 9 months ago

...that i need special parking because i'm visiting
...that i want starbuck's coffee at church...that is why i didn't stop on my way
...church = building
...the person on stage is very important, maybe most important
...it most be normal if everyone in church building is doing it
...one day good justifies six days average
...God approves of bad finance (.80 cents of each dollar goes towards the two hours on Sunday)

J. LeMaster-Smith · 9 months ago

We all seem to know this and we all do ministry in some way...now how to do we help to break these assumptions?

Dave Sandell · 9 months ago

True enough. It seems most doable if you're starting from scratch, but most of us cherish our communities even though they might be loaded with warts. How do you go about transforming those communities, where some of the things mentioned above might be 30+ years old?

Justin Wise · 9 months ago

What do you think, Dave? How do you implement change in a place that is quite comfy where it's at? You certainly don't want to "cut off your nose to spite your face," but are there ways to gently challenge the 'status quo' of the community you are in without marginalizing everyone in the community?

What places do you think do this well?

bryne lewis allport · 9 months ago

I'm episcopal so we're used to, but sometimes not good at, balancing the requirements of the liturgy with creating a welcoming congregation. The problem really goes beyond the possible exclusive character of religious practices. I think the american church as a body has ceased to value the liturgy's ability to disrupt us from our daily lives. Church service shouldn't be an experience seamless with our everyday lives. A quick survey of religious experience in the Bible would tell you that advent is disturbing. However, in order to make those experiences understandable and sharable, you need to adopt symbols and practices to memorialize and evoke advent. The problem is that eventually, the symbols and practices acquire an everydayness of their own. So the real balancing act is keeping liturgy sharable as a community while maintaining its essentially disruptive character while welcoming others to the community.

AND i just miss you.

Justin Wise · 9 months ago

That's a really great question. I seem to find myself asking that a lot. We KNOW (or at least, think we know) that something is ineffective, yet we continue to do it... Why?

Justin Wise · 9 months ago

C'mon now... You can't drop sweet gems of nectar like that one and not expect everyone to want more! We need more Bryne on BeDeviant.com. Matter of fact, it should be "BeBryne.com". What do you think of that idea?

You're Episcopalian, I'm Lutheran. We dig liturgy just like you guys. How are you "liturgizing" a younger generation in ways that you find effective?

bryne lewis allport · 9 months ago

i think that i'll pass BeBryne.com, but i know it was an offering of love. not to mention, i'm cheating my way to glory here... i spent all day reading and writing on heidegger, so my dialogue level is set a little high. my brain isn't big, it's just swollen. :)

i can't really speak to what the episcopal church is doing as a whole, but our congregation really works at making the least in our own congregation feel welcome. we are very tolerant and inclusive of children and the disabled. my kids say that this is the first church they feel like they belong to too. the grace that's extended to them (to make noise, wiggle, even be bored or confused) let's them approach the liturgy on their own terms. i think this makes an impression on people looking in on our congregation.

also, our church is all about service to the community. i think it makes a big impression on the younger generation, not only when you put your values into practice, but when you practice your values together.

Ross_Hesseltine · 9 months ago

This is what interests me...as my church starts to venture into a new worship service.

Dan Bryan · 9 months ago

you're the blog master flex, not me. i suppose i tipped my hand, but yes i think that is true at least some of the time. i think sometimes the rising generations have stopped giving money because of the abuses they've seen, and unfortunately some aren't giving it anywhere.

but that's not the primary story i see. i have a great friend who gives money away like crazy mostly to actual people doing real work to make an impact in the world. i'm not implying that churches don't do real work - but there is an important shift here.

i think there is an emerging value in rising generations to give to causes, to give to real people/projects that they can touch/taste/see. i actually think its a great shift. i think that at times institutions have divorced from actual contact with need - and this has actually left us less generous.

the gift of treasure is not only a command its about a heart exchange. if it is only rite or ritual the heart exchange (and change) tends to be minimal. i think one of the best parts about this shift is that rising generations don't want to be robbed of this exchange.

will institutions take note? will they adapt and adjust? get smaller and flatter? i hope so - release people to touch real need around them and give generously - as institutions to themselves!

Ben Anderson · 9 months ago

assumptions I used to have:
- Christ did not establish a visible church
- that thousands of different sects of Christianity is necessary
- that John 6 is not meant to be interpreted literally
- that the early Church was fundamentalist

to my astonishment I found that I became convicted that Christ did establish a Church. This church subsists in the Catholic Church, which administers Sacraments necessary for salvation. The early Church identifies most closely with this modern day Catholic Church.

Jim · 9 months ago

I assume the worst scenarios.I've been in some terrible church situations.

Watchman4Jesus · 7 months ago

That people want to be pointed out as new visitors, or don't.
That church is always within a building called a church
That the format is always in a particular order
That there is always a special person in charge and more important than all the others
That visitors are outsiders and not part of the family